erict@flatline.UUCP (J. Eric Townsend) (07/02/89)
As promised, here's the summary info. There's a wide variety of opinions on what will work and what won't, so it seems... =========================================================================== From: uunet!apple.com!desnoyer (Peter Desnoyers) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1989 11:02:20 PDT Two thoughts on the subject - (1) - A straight terminal interface to a BBS is outdated. You probably want some protocol that allows at least multiple channels and at best error correction. (You could probably pervert X.PC or MNP enough to do the job without inventing anything new. Or else UUCP?) People will have to run a special program at the remote end, but that shouldn't be a problem. (and for those who don't have a popular computer, you could have a subscription option to emulate most of the fancy stuff with ANSI or VT100 terminal commands.) (2) - You may be restricting yourself by only looking at full-fledged operating systems like UNIX. What you need is a real-time kernel of sorts (probably) and a file system. You could use an operating system like UNIX that gives you every facility you need, or you could use something more bare-bones for a dedicated BBS server. Peter Desnoyers =========================================================================== From: uunet!moegate!soley (Norman S. Soley) In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write: > >I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've >thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go. >Here're the requirements that I'm looking at: I don't know anything about it but I saw a package advertised in UNIX REVIEW which might be your cup of tea, it's called Crosspoint (or maybe that was the company name) >-- answer-only modems. Are these made, and are they significantly cheaper > than, say, a hayes modem. What speeds/protocols are available? I doubt it. It's much cheaper for a manufacturer to go out and buy a modem on a chip than it would be to design and build (and more importantly, get i certified by the FCC, etc) an answer-only modem. > What sort of price savings are there with rack mounted modems? Pretty good once you get into the quantities you're talking about, a big power supply is cheaper than 16 small ones. -- Norman Soley - The Communications Guy - Ontario Ministry of the Environment soley@moegate.UUCP or if you roll your own: uunet!attcan!ncrcan!moegate!soley The Minister speaks for the Ministry, I speak for myself. Got that! Good. Stay smart, go cool, be happy, it's the only way to get what you want =========================================================================== From: uunet!tiamat.fsc.com!jim (Jim O'Connor) To: erict@flatline.UUCP Subject: Re: RFC on large, multi-line bbs/chat system. In-reply-to: your article <751@flatline.UUCP> News-Path: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!pp!milano!bigtex!mybest!moray!flatline!erict Why the interest in answer-only modems? I don't think anyone makes these anymore. If it's for security, you can fix Unix to keep people from dialing out on them. If it's economic reasons, just find some commodity priced compatible modems and don't worry about fixing them. If one breaks, through it away. Fairly decent 2400 baud modems can be grabbed for ~$100, especilly in quantity. As far as rack mount goes, it helps simplify the cabling, but can be more expensive unless you already have a rack and power supply on site anyway. Also, there probably not such a thing as a "clone" rack mount modem, so you'll probably pay a higher price per modem for rack mount stuff (i.e. hobbyists don't usually have racks, so rack mount modems are not hobbyist priced). If you are going to have a large number of incoming lines, consider having a mix of modem types. For instance, if you are going to run Unix, the Telebit modems are most popular in the Unix world. Having a hunt group (one number, several phone lines) of say 4 Telebit T2500's would make you a popular site for Unix downloads and mail and news feeds (not exactly BBS stuff, but a good service to offer if you have the capacity). The DOS BBS world is using other modems (USR and Hayes mostly), so you might want to provide hunt groups of these types of modems to attract the DOS people. The T2500's will do V.32 as well as PEP, so you'll actually have a very large V.32 capacity (if you have other V.32 modems, you could just get Telebit TB+'s or T2000's to save a little money). All other modems (16 or 32 - the special modems) could be cheapo 2400 baud critters. As far as distributing the load goes, if you have Unix and use TCP/IP to network them, you can use NFS to cross mount file systems and make the multiple physical systems appear as one large logical system. Then, if you're BBS and chat software is file system based, the users won't notice if they get one system or the other (Well, the really sophisticated ones might :-). This requires a good amount of system administration to keep things running smoothly, but once set up, adding another machine into the network is much easier, so this provides an easy method for adding capacity. If you really want to get carried away with things, your machines in Texas (I assume) could be connecting via a TCP/IP bridge (leased line, dial-up SLIP, X.25, plus other options) to machines in other places (NY, CA, FL, etc) to form a WAN and users would be able to carry on REAL TIME conversations with people all over the place. You can sort of do the same thing by setting up incoming X.25 lines, so people call call in through Tymenet or Compuserve (like uunet), but then all the processing is going on on your machines, rather than spread out all over the place. If you want any help planning such a beastie, let me know. I like setting up things like this, and have been thinking about doing some thing like it around here, but I don't have the financial resources to do so. --jim --- James B. O'Connor jim@tiamat.fsc.com Filtration Sciences Corporation 615/821-4022 x. 651 *** Altos users unite! mail to "info-altos-request@tiamat.fsc.com" *** =========================================================================== From: uunet!lakesys.lakesys.COM!craig (Craig Stodolenak) I'm in a bit of a rush this morning, so please excuse the brevity... :-) In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write: > > >[Please, please email all replies. I *WILL* summarize to the net.] > >I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've >thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go. >Here're the requirements that I'm looking at: > >Basic requirements: >-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now. > Up to 32 or more if things work well. It would be nice if the > software could be made to handle resources allocated over more > than one computer. (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine > LAN?) >-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads >-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's > on right now" :-) >-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below) >-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization > for new terminals. (At least vt100 and ansi. If it uses > termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.) > >Secondary requirements: >-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with > needed local modifications >-- support for games (single and/or multiple player) > Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible > as well. >-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass > storage devices >-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-) > >Other things I've thought about: > >-- answer-only modems. Are these made, and are they significantly cheaper > than, say, a hayes modem. What speeds/protocols are available? > What sort of price savings are there with rack mounted modems? > >-- buying a used miniframe, so that I can expand in all directions > later on (ie: CPU, mass storage, serial lines, etc etc) > (I could just get an 88000 card for the 386, I guess. :-) > Is this at all practical? Would the maintenace costs and problems > defeat the expandable-cpu pluses? I believe that a micro would still be the best bet. Mini's are alwfully expensive (like "big" 386's are cheap, right), and to get any kind of warranty you need a service contract and all those headaches. There really isn't that much that a mini has over a micro w/smart I/O boards anyway. > >-- other operating systems. The only other multitasking OS I'm at > all familiar with is OS-9/68K. I'm not interested in MS-DOS > or OS/2 based applications. I highly recommend that you look into other alternatives to Unix (as long as you don't need the net access... *the* major plus for Unix in my book). THEOS, PICK especially (especially for DBM-like applications like a BBS or multi-player games or whatever), and many other OS's exist. Check them out. > >I'm interested in any comments you might have about conferencing >systems, chat systems, unix-based bbs'es, 386 Unix or anything else >you feel is relevant. Well, we use PicoSpan here (Unix), and it works well (plus it's pretty inexpensive compared to others we've looked at). A full-featured threaded-conference BBS package. Highly versatile. We use 'conf', a PD chat program that gives us everything we need in that regard (check your nearest netlib). As for Unix we go with SCO Xenix 386... very capable in regards to our needs... again, check it out. > >Lookit all those questions. :-) Will you lookit the time? I gotta' get out of here. > >Again, please email replies, I'll summarize to the net. Again, sorry so brief... I'm late already! -- Craig L. Stodolenak "...there are no truths, only lies, but some uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!craig of the lies are useful (sometimes)." craig@lakesys.lakesys.COM -- Dave Lord =========================================================================== From: texbell!cs.utexas.edu!atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu!heins (Leeland Heins) Eric, Its been my experience that '386 machines are typically only capable of handling a few users. While the '386 lends itself to running single user applications fairly fast, it seems to bog down quickly in a multiuser multitasking environment. This may be in part due to the hardware surrounding the '386 (usually an AT on steroids). For a multi-user machine its essential to get as much RAM as possible (figure at least 1M for UNIX and an additional meg for each user, and to get at least two hard drives. The latter is essential, since paging on the same hard drive as all other disk access is on will cause significant performance problems. Ideally heavily used file systems should be spread over as many disk arms as possible to maximize I/O bandwidth. SCSI drives really work nice, since SCSI has dynamic reconnect, and most quality drives such as Quantum, CDC and Maxtor also integrate hardware readahead caches. Another problem with '386 boxes is fun with flaky tape backup and RS-232 devices. For a system as large as you are talking I'd be looking into a mini or workstation level machine. We use two VAXes running 4.3BSD-Tahoe UNIX for our online information system, the main one being a VAX 8250 with two RA81 (456M) hard drives and 8M of RAM (which should be 16M real soon now). Lee Heins, EXNET Programmer Iowa State U. Extension ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!atanasoff!heins heins@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu Disclaimer: My employers don't ever listen to me, let alone let me speak for them. :-) =========================================================================== From: texbell!cs.utexas.edu!marob.masa.com!lilink!tbetz (Tom Betz) To: erict@flatline.UUCP Subject: Re: RFC on large, multi-line bbs/chat system. Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.bbs,comp.unix.i386 In-Reply-To: <751@flatline.UUCP> Organization: Greyston Business Services, Inc. Cc: Eric , in <751@flatline.UUCP> you said: |I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've |thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go. |Here're the requirements that I'm looking at: | |Basic requirements: |-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now. | Up to 32 or more if things work well. It would be nice if the | software could be made to handle resources allocated over more | than one computer. (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine | LAN?) Magpie |-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads Magpie |-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's | on right now" :-) Magchat |-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below) |-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization | for new terminals. (At least vt100 and ansi. If it uses | termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.) Magpie |Secondary requirements: |-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with | needed local modifications Steve Manes, author of Magpie. Talk to him about what he's done for NY City Board of Ed, and the LAPD. |-- support for games (single and/or multiple player) | Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible | as well. If you can run it from the shell, you can run it from Magpie. |-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass | storage devices On the NY Board of Ed's system, they run BRS. If the Unix port you use supports it, so will Magpie. |-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-) Steve prefers to do his own mods, but C source can be had for a price. Check out Magpie HQ to see the beta of his new version, and the MAGPIE discussion to see what's in the pipeline. 212-420-0527. Drop a copy of this posting on Steve there, and see what he has to say about it. You can also download a copy of the previous version of Magpie there and try it out on your 386 Xenix system, if you have one. Check out NYCENET to see how he has customized it for the NY Board of Ed. Very different command structure, about 16 lines (at present, more coming, after IBM funds the 800 lines) and BRS on-line (though not immediately available - you need permissions from Buzz Robbins, the Sysop). 212-769-0550 Disclaimer: I have no connection with Magpie, other than as a real fan of the software. -- "There are no magicians. There are no hidden | rutgers!lilink!upaya!tbetz people or gurus somewhere in secret. You have | Tom Betz, Greyston Foundation already been given the teaching by the greatest | 114 Woodworth Ave. illuminated sages born." - Gopi Krishna | Yonkers, NY 10701-2509 =========================================================================== From: texbell!cs.utexas.edu!cse.ogc.edu!ncube!tessi!escargot!chrisb (Chris Bradley) In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write: >I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've >thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go. >Here're the requirements that I'm looking at: > >Basic requirements: >-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now. > Up to 32 or more if things work well. It would be nice if the > software could be made to handle resources allocated over more > than one computer. (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine > LAN?) Chances are a 386 UNIX based machine IS the way to go. That's what I'm using right now. I can say that a normal PC under DOS would be unbearable. >-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads Do you want it to interface to any existing networking mailers? >-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's > on right now" :-) >-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below) >-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization > for new terminals. (At least vt100 and ansi. If it uses > termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.) Easier said than done, however it's possible! >Secondary requirements: >-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with > needed local modifications I am currently writing a BBS that will work under UNIX or MS-DOS, and I will distribute source code free, and answer any questions one might have. >-- support for games (single and/or multiple player) > Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible > as well. My BBS won't directly support games, however, there are necessary hooks to include their usage. >-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass > storage devices >-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-) Yes, it's in C. :-)) >Other things I've thought about: > >-- answer-only modems. Are these made, and are they significantly cheaper > than, say, a hayes modem. What speeds/protocols are available? > What sort of price savings are there with rack mounted modems? Chances are an "Answer-only" modem would cost you close to or just as much as a "real" modem. Plus, how would your system network without the use of an auto-dial modem? >-- buying a used miniframe, so that I can expand in all directions > later on (ie: CPU, mass storage, serial lines, etc etc) > (I could just get an 88000 card for the 386, I guess. :-) > Is this at all practical? Would the maintenace costs and problems > defeat the expandable-cpu pluses? You're bound to run into hardware/software incompatability, and would only be able to fix problems if you knew what to do. >-- other operating systems. The only other multitasking OS I'm at > all familiar with is OS-9/68K. I'm not interested in MS-DOS > or OS/2 based applications. > >I'm interested in any comments you might have about conferencing >systems, chat systems, unix-based bbs'es, 386 Unix or anything else >you feel is relevant. You didn't mention networking message bases above, however I feel that this is imperative. There's a big difference between talking to the users in your area and talking to users around the world. Plus, your bbs, if you didn't have a method of networking, would be rather boring for the first month, before it gained popularity, of course :-). My bbs, when finished, will have networking news, networking mail, UUCP interface to the world. If you're interested, I'll give you more about it. Just mail me a message! -->Chris =============================================================================== | Name : Chris Bradley | Wanna | "I didn't like the Mercury | | UUCP : ...tektronix!escargot!chrisb | talk? | Sable, so I bought a Ford | | Phone: (503) 644-3585 (Home) | Call me! | Taurus instead!" | =============================================================================== =========================================================================== From: milano!pp!cs.utexas.edu!columbia.edu!cucard!dasys1!manes (Steve Manes) Take a look at Magpie/Xenix (which is compatible under SVR3 with other 386 Unixen as well). The only requirement it doesn't meet is source code availability (unless you are well-financed for a source code agreement). I have Magpie running at the NYC Board of Ed's NYCENET system on a 386 with 16 users and it's expanding to 40 users by year's end. It's been very successful with both students and various education associations. If you want to give it a call, it's (212)769-0550. You can also call my Support BBS, Magpie-HQ, at (212)420-0527, where I have Magpie 2.0 in beta test (release: July '89). Magpie is distributed Shareware ($100 noncommercial/$350 commercial) and I'm the author (and a member of the Association of Shareware Professionals). -- +----- + Steve Manes + decvax!philabs!cmcl2!hombre!magpie!manes Magpie BBS: 212-420-0527 + SmartMail: manes@magpie.MASA.COM =========================================================================== From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) To: erict@flatline.UUCP Subject: Re: RFC on large, multi-line bbs/chat system. Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.bbs,comp.unix.i386 In-Reply-To: <751@flatline.UUCP> Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL Cc: In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write: > > >[Please, please email all replies. I *WILL* summarize to the net.] > >I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've >thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go. >Here're the requirements that I'm looking at: > >Basic requirements: >-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now. > Up to 32 or more if things work well. It would be nice if the > software could be made to handle resources allocated over more > than one computer. (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine > LAN?) >-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads >-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's > on right now" :-) >-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below) >-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization > for new terminals. (At least vt100 and ansi. If it uses > termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.) All this is no problem. AKCS does it right now... :-) Video attributes are supported, as is a redefinable "message" set for bbs messages (internal prompts, etc), video attributes, and more. A Chat module is provided in source form; you can modify this to suit (although it is reasonable complete and very fast as it sits). A 386 should be easily able to handle 16-32 users.... if you have the disk space to store all the posts :-) It also interfaces with Usenet (this can DRAMATICALLY up your disk requirements :-), and in addition it communicates with other AKCS sites... you could join our AKCS Network! >Secondary requirements: >-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with > needed local modifications >-- support for games (single and/or multiple player) > Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible > as well. >-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass > storage devices >-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-) Well, you can define callouts to anything you want (in the BBS command tables); this takes care of local enhancements without needing the source code. It is also available, and we offer _excellent_ support -- just ask a few of our current customers. AKCS is written in "C". If you want to ask a few users what they think of our support, give 'em a holler on the email links. "tronsbox" and "point" are two systems that have contributed numerous suggestions -- and seen them come to fruition within a few weeks. Either is reachable by bouncing off of us -- point is in the Chicago area, while tronsbox is out in New Jersey. (mail to ddsw1!tronsbox!tron1 or ddsw1!point!wek). >I'm interested in any comments you might have about conferencing >systems, chat systems, unix-based bbs'es, 386 Unix or anything else >you feel is relevant. > >Lookit all those questions. :-) I'm enclosing a blurb on our system; feel free to call the "data" line in the .signature below and check it out for yourself. AKCS is available in binary for the 286 and 386 series machines, as well as 3b2s and 3b1s, and a few others. We will port to nearly anything; the code is _highly_ portable and was written to work with most any Unix type operating system. Again, let me know if we can be of help. AKCS(tm) V6.2 The Future in Computer Conferencing is here today. AKCS is a threaded conferencing package with extraordinary versatility, ease of use, performance, and most of all, support. AKCS is the answer to your computer conferencing needs, whether you be a corporate or individual user, for profit or not. You deserve nothing less than the best. MCS and AKCS deliver it to your door and system users every time. Some key features of AKCS V6.2 are: o Private mailer functions integrated into the captive environment. Now captive, secure AKCS users can have access to Unix inter and intra-site email! Integrates seamlessly with Smail 3.0 (also available from MCS for a media fee) to provide intelligent routing and delivery services. o Attached files, permitting the inclusion of lenghty (or binary) files easily with AKCS postings. Uses any number of external protocols, and batches files for protocols that can handle the conventions required (ie: kermit, zmodem, etc). o Full-screen editor support, with context display, for users who have cursor-mapped terminals. Your user-defined item and response separator formats are preserved while viewing the context window. o Extensible command set, including privilege mask capabilities so you can allow or deny individial commands to users based on your preferences. AKCS can handle "calling out" to external programs as well without hassle, and is capable of passing security information to those programs for your own use. o Redefinable configurations, with any number supported. This allows the user to choose the "personality" he or she likes best! In addition, a number of user preferences are able to be chosen by each individual user, and saved permanently -- users can "customize" the AKCS environment to suit their own preferences even beyond that which the administrator provides! o Will operate in a sublogin ("chroot"ed area), and Special versions are available to operate over a NFS or RFS Lan (required changes are in the file locking code). AKCS has no fixed installation point requirements -- you define where it goes, and the group it executes under, during the installation process. There are many, many more features available in AKCS -- too many to conveniently list here. The best way to experience the power of AKCS is to call our AKCS demonstration site listed below -- or request our demonstration package. AKCS licensees are eligible to receive any or all of our currently linked conferences, providing you are willing to poll our organizations' equipment. We have several conferences which are of wide-area interest available on request to all AKCS sites. Excellent support is our hallmark. We support AKCS both before and after the sale. Customer suggestions often turn up in the next release -- and we average 3-4 releases of new features and enhancements a year! Climb aboard today, and sail into the future tomorrow. AKCS is available NOW for the following system configurations: o SCO Xenix/286 and /386 o Microport Unix SysV/286 and /386 o AT&T 3b1 and 3b2 series systems MCS will port to other Unix configurations on a time-and-materials basis if desired -- contact us if you wish to inquire about a specific system configuration. We are also willing to license the Source Code to qualified firms. BUY *NOW* -- and get the highest performance, best supported conferencing solution available anywhere -- at any price! AKCS V6.2 Binary License Pricing System Class Binary Price Annual Support (Letter, examples) (Including utilities) (First 6 mos. included) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * A - 80286, AT&T 7300/3b1 $149.00 $49.00 B - "AT" '386, 3b2/310, Microvax-II $249.00 $49.00 C - 3b2/400, UVax 3800, Vax 11/780 $499.00 $99.00 D - Vax 8600 series, 8800, large Amdahls, etc. $999.00 $199.00 AKCS V6 Source License Pricing: Unix System V, DEC Ultrix $2,499 $500.00 + Porting Charges * (Special promotional binary price; available for a limited time only) To order or for more information, contact MCS today. Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. 415 South East Garfield Avenue Mundelein, IL 60060 (312) 566-8910 For a complete live demonstration of AKCS call our computer system by modem at: (312) 566-8911 or (312) 566-8912 24-hour modem access at 300-2400 baud -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" -- "More ambience, less substance." J. Eric Townsend -- uunet!sugar!flatline!erict || cosc5zz@george.uh.edu 511 Parker #2, Houston, Tx 77007 EastEnders Mailing list: eastender@flatline.UUCP