nubartho@ndsuvax.UUCP (Bruce Bartholomew) (06/06/89)
I was watching the NBC Nightly News and saw the story about the historic
elections in Poland. I was particularly interested in the part where
they showed Solidarity leaders computing numbers on what looked like
a PC style box.
I'm really curious as to the state of the art in personal computers in
the Eastern bloc (I've read about them in Russia) and how prevelant
they are in the "average" home. Anybody that can answer this one for
me?
--
Bruce Bartholomew 715 South 4th Street Moorhead, MN 56560 218-233-2534
INTERNET: nubartho@plains.nodak.edu *or* nu034421@vm1.nodak.edu
UUCP: uunet!ndsuvax!nubartho BITNET: nu034421@ndsuvm1
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones" - Charley Johnsonjamesm@sco.COM (James M. Moore) (06/09/89)
In article <2717@ndsuvax.UUCP> nubartho@plains.nodak.edu (Bruce Bartholomew) writes: >I'm really curious as to the state of the art in personal computers in >the Eastern bloc (I've read about them in Russia) and how prevelant >they are in the "average" home. Anybody that can answer this one for >me? >Bruce Bartholomew 715 South 4th Street Moorhead, MN 56560 218-233-2534 >INTERNET: nubartho@plains.nodak.edu *or* nu034421@vm1.nodak.edu >UUCP: uunet!ndsuvax!nubartho BITNET: nu034421@ndsuvm1 > "Some days are diamonds, some days are stones" - Charley Johnson You might want to check out a copy of "V mire personal'nikh komp'juterov," published by IDG Communication and Radio i Svjaz'. The first copy was published in August 88. Even if you don't read Russian looking at the advertisements is interesting. (IMHO, Apple's add is the most impressive - two page spread about the IIGS). About half of the magazine is Russian translations of Western articles, mostly from PC World (the English title of the magazine is "PC World - USSR," and IDG is a part of the organization that puts out PCW). -- James Moore jamesm@sco.com
usagdr@cdp.UUCP (06/09/89)
There's a very good book published recently by National Defense University Pressre. the state of computers and society in the US SR. I'll try to get the title to you. In general, ownership of PC's in socialist countries is limited to official organizations, research institutes, universities, hospitals, large economic enterprises and, of course, the government. In the GDR, for example, the average citizen can usually find a low-grade commodore at a second-hand store, but IBM-compatible PC's are very difficult to obtain. Modems, by the way, are illegal. (Not that it would make any difference--line noise on the GDR's medieval phone system would shut down a link in ten seconds.) On the other hand, I've heard that recently officials in the Soviet Union, Poland and Hungary have begun to allow private citizens to import PCs directly from the West. The one obvious limitation is, naturally, valuta (hard currency). An $800 PC would simply be unobtainable for the average citizen. Like you, I'm interested in how this picture might be changing.
dl@ibiza.Miami.Edu (David Lesher) (06/11/89)
> Article <135900010@cdp> From: usagdr@cdp.UUCP
# On the other hand, I've heard that recently officials in the Soviet Union,
# Poland and Hungary have begun to allow private citizens to import PCs directly
# from the West.
When I was in Warsaw last summer, I saw a variety of systems
on sale. Most were CBM or Atari 8 bit, but there were others.
More intereting to me was the book supply. I found all kinds
of computer books and magazines. I have NO idea what most of
them covered, but I did buy copies (in Polish) of both an RSX-11
manual and ...... Good Old K&R.gene@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Yevgeny Y. Itkis) (06/14/89)
In article <3583@viscous.sco.COM> jamesm@sco.COM (James M. Moore) writes: >In article <2717@ndsuvax.UUCP> nubartho@plains.nodak.edu (Bruce Bartholomew) writes: >>I'm really curious as to the state of the art in personal computers in >>the Eastern bloc (I've read about them in Russia) and how prevelant >>they are in the "average" home. Anybody that can answer this one for >>me? >>Bruce Bartholomew 715 South 4th Street Moorhead, MN 56560 218-233-2534 >>INTERNET: nubartho@plains.nodak.edu *or* nu034421@vm1.nodak.edu >>UUCP: uunet!ndsuvax!nubartho BITNET: nu034421@ndsuvm1 >> "Some days are diamonds, some days are stones" - Charley Johnson > >You might want to check out a copy of "V mire personal'nikh komp'juterov," >published by IDG Communication and Radio i Svjaz'. The first copy was >published in August 88. Even if you don't read Russian looking at the >advertisements is interesting. (IMHO, Apple's add is the most impressive - >two page spread about the IIGS). > >About half of the magazine is Russian translations of Western articles, mostly >from PC World (the English title of the magazine is "PC World - USSR," >and IDG is a part of the organization that puts out PCW). I am surprised no one with the fresh direct sources didn't publish a responce to this. But the last I heard (pretty recent though not the most direct source) even the cheapest PC's run 40-50K roubles and up. Considering that a 200 roubles/month is a good salary (a *real* big shot may get 500-600, and recent grads get usually under 150) you can judge for yourself how prevalent they are in an average soviet home. Btw, I think they are not available in stores - only in the good old black market. How are things in other Eastern bloc countries I don't know.
ijohnson@udenva.cair.du.edu (ILENE JOHNSON ) (06/14/89)
In article <32926@bu-cs.BU.EDU> gene@bucsd.bu.edu (Yevgeny Y. Itkis) writes: > >I am surprised no one with the fresh direct sources didn't publish a responce >to this. But the last I heard (pretty recent though not the most direct source) >even the cheapest PC's run 40-50K roubles and up. Considering that a 200 >roubles/month is a good salary (a *real* big shot may get 500-600, and recent >grads get usually under 150) you can judge for yourself how prevalent they are >in an average soviet home. Btw, I think they are not available in stores - only >in the good old black market. How are things in other Eastern bloc countries I >don't know. I hope I'm a direct enough source for anybody here. I returned from the USSR in January after 6 months of working on a computer exhibit. The exhibit talked about life in the USA with computers. My section of the exhibit when to to Magnitagorsk ( in the Urals) Leningrad and Minsk. Hardly *anybody* has a personal computer. The major question at the exhibit was "how much does a personal computer cost, can anybody get one. " Other popular questions were "are there any restrictions in owning printers" ( as of October its illegal for private citizens in the USSR to own a printer) and how much to floppy disks cost( in the USSR its about 30-50 rubles or at the offical inflated rate of exchange 50 - 80 dollars!!!! Another major question at the exhibit was about signing on to a network and how this was done - as in signing on to Usenet or Compuserve. The idea that we use the phone lines fascinated them, because most people wait 7 years or more for a private telephone!!! I told people that I own an older computer, an XT, 40 meg hard disk, 1 disk drive for floppy and 640 K RAM. The cost in Minsk? 90,000 rubles!!! The few personal computers I did see in the USSR were obtained when the owner went abroad and personally carried the computer back. All the computer books I bought were translated from English. For instance I bought a book about C langange which is a translation of "The C Programmers Hangbook" and was originally published by Prentice Hall. I found that they basically have no comprehension how computers are used in everyday life in the west(Airline tickets there are still hand written exclusively - and a round trip ticket is impossible to buy). I spoke to these people without benefit of interpreter (no they didn't speak English) and they were particularly frank after a few shots of booze!!! I was there 6 1/2 months and am mighty glad to be back West!!! I probably know more about computers there, but can't recall at this time!! Bye for now! Ilene K. Johnson ijohnson@udenva
learn@igloo.Scum.COM (william vajk) (06/14/89)
In article <32926@bu-cs.BU.EDU> Yevgeny Y. Itkis writes: > In article <3583@viscous.sco.COM> James M. Moore writes: > >In article <2717@ndsuvax.UUCP> Bruce Bartholomew writes: > >>I'm really curious as to the state of the art in personal computers in > >>the Eastern bloc (I've read about them in Russia) and how prevelant > >>they are in the "average" home. Anybody that can answer this one for > >>me? > >You might want to check out a copy of "V mire personal'nikh komp'juterov," > I am surprised no one with the fresh direct sources didn't publish a responce > to this. Two years ago, in Yugoslavia, I saw one computer for sale in a Belgrade shop window a block from the Capital Building. As I recall, the price was in the range of $ 600 US at the official exchange rate. It was a homegrown 64K machine of some sort, no disk available, only an adapted audio tape unit. Two years ago, the most popular machine in Hungary was the Commodore 64 which was typically purchased in Vienna as there were no official imports. There is an entire street in Vienna, Tabor Strasse, which caters to visiting Hungarians with prevalent signs in most stores proclaiming that the proprietors speak Hungarian. Interestingly, the tariff on computer equipment for personal use is lower than if taken into the country for resale. There was, early on, an official Commodore Repair Center in Budapest. By last fall, several stores were selling IBM clones, XT and '286. A simple XT with 640 K @ 8 MHz and a single floppy with a monochrome monitor sold for approximately $ 1500 at the official exchange rate, with a two week delivery after order and payment. Considering that at the time, the average wage in Hungary was approximately $ 100 per month, this represents a sizable outlay. Considering the shortage of consumer goods, the historical saving mentality, and the general lack of the availability of interest bearing investments in Hungary since 1947, there is a large amount of curency available. Unfortunately, the currency is soft and considering the state of the trade balances, imports are generally restricted to low levels. In all likelihood, this situation will not change in the near future. With the imposition of a new income tax structure this year, entreprenaurial income will be sharply reduced as a source of disposable income. Imports of consumer goods will doubtless decline. The effect of becoming an arms length trading partner of the new Europe is unknown as the political climate depends more on Soviet influence than any other single factor. Prevalence ? Ya gotta be kidding. We're talking about a nation where the normal residential electrical service is 10 amperes at 220 Volts, where mama has been waiting for 20 or more years to afford a vacuum cleaner, where scrubboards are still being manufactured, where you get into the telephone lottery after a ten year waiting list (if you live in Budapest) and most country villages have one emergency direct connected telephone on the front of the Post Office. Need we discuss Romania where ordinary typewriters are required to be registered with the police ? Bill Vajk Always behave like a duck keep calm & unruffled on the surface, but paddle like hell underneath
jon@june.cs.washington.edu (Jon Jacky) (06/14/89)
The June 12 issue of the business newsmagazine, FORBES, has a cover story on computing in the Soviet Union. It is by Esther Dyson, editor of the industry newsletter RELEASE 1.0. It describes her three-week long trip last March observing the computer (especially microcomputer) scene over there. It addresses many of the points discussed in these postings. - Jon Jacky, University of Washington, jon@june.cs.washington.edu
arttu@lupu.hut.fi (Arttu Pekka Laine) (06/19/89)
In article <135900010@cdp> usagdr@cdp.UUCP writes: >In general, ownership of PC's in socialist countries is limited to official >organizations, research institutes, universities, hospitals, large economic >enterprises and, of course, the government. In the GDR, for example, the >average citizen can usually find a low-grade commodore at a second-hand store, >but IBM-compatible PC's are very difficult to obtain. >On the other hand, I've heard that recently officials in the Soviet Union, >Poland and Hungary have begun to allow private citizens to import PCs directly >from the West. The one obvious limitation is, naturally, valuta (hard >currency). An $800 PC would simply be unobtainable for the average citizen. One finnish computer-shop is making nice sales selling PC's to Estonia/USSR. The owner I personally know, has every day aprox. 2 Estonian clients buying PC's. The manager is having little difficulties when he is looking for exact info of exporting computers, but still it is legal to sell those 8086 / 8088 based models to be exported. When dealing with 80286's , I'm not sure if those are accepted by CoCom and U.S.A , and I think Russians couldn't buy those anyway becouse of higher prices. ( Btw, Finland is not a full member of COCOM , but we are fully following all technology exporting limitations to USSR ). Estonians have a permission to import goods worth of approx. $800 USD when returning to USSR. So it is possible to buy cheap PC clone with low expansions. 286 and 386 based are far too valuable to be imported to USSR legaly, and I think 386 is banned by COCOM and 286 with math-chip as well, but not with out. Regulations will change all the time so I'm not sure of the current regulations. Valuta problem is then another thing to worry: Estonians are allowed to exchange certain amount of Roubles to western-currency to be used for living etc. But that amount is so small that defenetly it's not possible to buy allmost anything special, I wonder how they are able to stay with that money at Helsinki, which is very expensive city to live. Of course there are ways for Russians to have western-curency, ( methods will be left for student as exersice .. :-) ). What I've been noticing, common way to get valid- currency is taking a job for a few weeks at Finland, and this applys for Estonians as well. Of course to be able to stay aboard from Russia for that time is another problem, but that is possible to do as well, with connections and _good_ luck at USSR. And think, when a guy takes a job for 2 months, earns 20 000FIM (=$4900 USD), buys a cheap PC, and then goes back to home, having $4000 USD and PC. You know, somebody is allways swapping no-Roubles to Roubles, with ratio like 1 USD = 4.4 Roubles. I sure is possible to collect western-money at USSR as well, but It'll take time and Roubles. Still that technique is used as well. I've just ordered one COCOM cataloque of banned goods to USSR, and when I get it in few days, I'll post those regulations concersing PC's. Arttu Laine | Helsinki University of Technology, dept of Computer Sience INTERNET: arttu@hupu.hut.fi UUCP : mcvax!santra!hupu!arttu
fmr@cwi.nl (Frank Rahmani) (06/20/89)
? In article <135900010@cdp? usagdr@cdp.UUCP writes:
?
??In general, ownership of PC's in socialist countries is limited to official
??organizations, research institutes, universities, hospitals, large economic
??enterprises and, of course, the government. In the GDR, for example, the
??average citizen can usually find a low-grade commodore at a second-hand store,
??but IBM-compatible PC's are very difficult to obtain.
??On the other hand, I've heard that recently officials in the Soviet Union,
??Poland and Hungary have begun to allow private citizens to import PCs directly
??from the West. The one obvious limitation is, naturally, valuta (hard
??currency). An $800 PC would simply be unobtainable for the average citizen.
?
? One finnish computer-shop is making nice sales selling PC's to Estonia/USSR.
? The owner I personally know, has every day aprox. 2 Estonian clients buying
? PC's. The manager is having little difficulties when he is looking for
? exact info of exporting computers, but still it is legal to sell those
? 8086 / 8088 based models to be exported. When dealing with 80286's , I'm not
? sure if those are accepted by CoCom and U.S.A , and I think Russians couldn't
? buy those anyway becouse of higher prices.
Electronics giant Siemens &Halske of western Germany signed a contract
about 0.8 billion dollars comprising delivery of '286 Sinix running
AT-like workstations at the tune of 300.000 complete sets a year,
including documentation, user education and advice. This contract is
to be extended. Other major German PC makers will follow.
fmr@cwi.nl
--
It is better never to have been born. But who among us has such luck?
Maintainer's Motto:
If we can't fix it, it ain't broke.
These opinions are solely mine and in no way reflect those of my employer. usagdr@cdp.UUCP (06/22/89)
Thanks for the information. I believe the COCOM regs on computers were liberalized a few weeks ago. I'm looking forward to your posting. Andy Lang
kennel@mickey.cognet.ucla.edu (Matthew Kennel) (07/04/89)
In article <32926@bu-cs.BU.EDU) gene@bucsd.bu.edu (Yevgeny Y. Itkis) writes:
)I am surprised no one with the fresh direct sources didn't publish a responce
)to this. But the last I heard (pretty recent though not the most direct source)
)even the cheapest PC's run 40-50K roubles and up. Considering that a 200
)roubles/month is a good salary (a *real* big shot may get 500-600, and recent
)grads get usually under 150) you can judge for yourself how prevalent they are
)in an average soviet home. Btw, I think they are not available in stores - only
)in the good old black market. How are things in other Eastern bloc countries I
)don't know.
A good Russian friend of my father's will be selling their Commodore in order to build
a summer house. (He's a _very_ big shot so he has a PC-AT at home, with a laser printer,
no less).
Matt Kennel
kennel@cognet.ucla.edu