erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) (10/25/89)
I have heard horror stories about people who have ruined their wrists from holding their hands in improper positions at computer or piano keyboards. Can anyone tell me how we're supposed to position our hands (i.e. with wrists on table, low, high, whatever)? Please answer by email. I will summarize if there is interest. Ellen
talent@dover.sps.mot.com (Steve Talent) (10/26/89)
In article <15349@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) writes: >I have heard horror stories about people who have ruined their wrists >from holding their hands in improper positions at computer or piano >keyboards. Can anyone tell me how we're supposed to position our >hands (i.e. with wrists on table, low, high, whatever)? Please >answer by email. I will summarize if there is interest. > > Ellen I developed problems in my fingers from improper typing posture. The condition is commonly called "Trigger Finger" - I forget the medical term. After being told that surgery may be the solution I changed my typing posture and have not had many problems since. I used to type with my wrists or the heels of my palms resting on the table. To reach the keys I had to bend my wrist back at an angle. I started having problems with pain in my hands and if were to grip something, e.g. a screw- driver, my fingers would lock. I had to straighten my fingers by pulling them with the other hand. I now type with my wrists flat and the problem rarely occurs. Sit upright with your elbows about the same height as the lower edge of the keyboard. Your forearm will be inclined 3 to 5 degrees from horizontal. One reason I believe I developed bad typing posture before is that my chair was too low relative to the keyboard. I had to reach up to the keyboard and because of arm fatigue I would rest my wrists on the table. -- Steve Talent, Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector CAD Mesa, AZ 602-994-6801, ...!{oakhill, sun!sunburn, uunet}!dover!talent
dennis@Peanuts (Dennis Cottel) (10/26/89)
talent@dover.sps.mot.com (Steve Talent) writes: > I used to type with my wrists or the heels of my palms resting on the table. So can anyone point me to a company that sells an add-on wrist support thingy? This would be a wrist support attached to a flat plate that you could slide underneath your keyboard. I've looked in a number of computer supplies catalogs with no luck. Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 553-1645 dennis@nosc.MIL sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis
RR.MAX@forsythe.stanford.edu (10/26/89)
In article <1453@nosc.NOSC.MIL>, dennis@Peanuts (Dennis Cottel) writes: >So can anyone point me to a company that sells an add-on wrist support >thingy? This would be a wrist support attached to a flat plate that you >could slide underneath your keyboard. I've looked in a number of computer One suggestion: a towel, folded into enough plies to match the thickness of the keyboard, will support the wrists, offer a resilient, washable surface, and be immediately at hand when you spill your coffee.
joeg@polygen.uucp (Joe Gaudreau) (10/27/89)
In <1932@dover.sps.mot.com> talent@dover.sps.mot.com (Steve Talent) writes: >In <15349@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) writes: >>I have heard horror stories about people who have ruined their wrists >>from holding their hands in improper positions at computer or piano >> Ellen > >I developed problems in my fingers from improper typing posture. The >condition is commonly called "Trigger Finger" - I forget the medical term I think the term is "Meta-Carpal Tunnel Syndrome", it is a kind of nerve pressure damage. It can lead to all sorts of nasties. I get it from gymnastics and bicycling (used to be very *very* bad). It got bad enough that I considered surgery at one point. However, not liking the 'Mac the Knife' idea too much, I did some checking. It turns out that chiropractor's know about it and can do something about it (usually without drugs or surgery). In my case, an effective and fun therapy to build wrist strength, flexibility and for re-alignment is juggling (ie clubs). Works for me. Joe -=- --- Joe Gaudreau @ Polygen Corporation, Waltham, MA 02254 (617)890-2888 UUCP: {princeton,mit-eddie,buita,sunne}!polygen!joeg
ncas@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (clifford.a.stevens..jr) (10/27/89)
In article <1932@dover.sps.mot.com>, talent@dover.sps.mot.com (Steve Talent) writes: > In article <15349@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) writes: > I now type with my wrists flat and the problem rarely occurs. Sit upright > with your elbows about the same height as the lower edge of the keyboard. > Your forearm will be inclined 3 to 5 degrees from horizontal. One reason > I believe I developed bad typing posture before is that my chair was too > low relative to the keyboard. I had to reach up to the keyboard and because > of arm fatigue I would rest my wrists on the table. This is good, but sitting at chair high enough for your wrists might make your screen too low relative to your eyes. My physical therapist says you should look up at the screen, however I have no idea why, and I don't and it doesn't seem to bother me! ------------ Who, me worry?!? Cliff Stevens MT1E228 att!cbnewsj!ncas (201)957-3902
exspes@gdr.bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) (10/27/89)
In article <1932@dover.sps.mot.com> talent@dover.sps.mot.com (Steve Talent) writes: > >I developed problems in my fingers from improper typing posture. The >condition is commonly called "Trigger Finger" - I forget the medical >term. In the UK, at least, it's RSI (Repetitive Strain Injury), or RST (... Trauma). It can also do your wrists in, which is the flavor of the problem which tends to strike me. >I now type with my wrists flat and the problem rarely occurs. Sit upright >with your elbows about the same height as the lower edge of the keyboard. >Your forearm will be inclined 3 to 5 degrees from horizontal. One reason >I believe I developed bad typing posture before is that my chair was too >low relative to the keyboard. I had to reach up to the keyboard and because >of arm fatigue I would rest my wrists on the table. Another way of looking at this, which is what I was taught when I was working my way through school as a typist, is that the TOP of your keys should be level with the top of your 'normal' desk surface, or an inch below. (Assuming you have your chair 'normally' adjusted for working comfortably at your desk.) Proper 'typist' desks have a 'well' which is lower than the remainder of the desk surface for putting the typewriter in, to achieve that result. Goes without saying, then, that the normal programmer's habit of putting the terminal on the normal desk worksurface is unhealthy. You should have a separate lower surface for the terminal. Can also aggravate the situation if you have to lean over to look at your screen. The screen should be raised above the keyboard so that you can sit up straight with the keyboard at the right height as described above, and have the screen somewhere near eyelevel or a bit below. Sitting on top of the system unit and a couple of phonebooks is about right. Finally, the faster you type the more likely you are to suffer RST. It's more likely if you 'punch' the keys, less likely if you depress them smoothly. It's actually the sudden (small) jar when the key bottoms out which (my references say) causes the damage. So, slow down, take advantage of any facility your system offers to allow you to get your input in with less keystrokes -- abbreviations, speedtype, aliases, function keys, command completion, ... Of course (and unfortunately) this is not possible for keyboard data-entry people, who generally have to work to very high character per hour rates; and who are most likely to suffer from RST. -- Paul Smee | JANET: Smee@uk.ac.bristol Computer Centre | BITNET: Smee%uk.ac.bristol@ukacrl.bitnet University of Bristol | Internet: Smee%uk.ac.bristol@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (Phone: +44 272 303132) | UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!gdr.bath.ac.uk!exspes
chl@cs.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) (10/27/89)
In article <1646@cbnewsj.ATT.COM> ncas@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (clifford.a.stevens..jr) writes: ....... My physical therapist says you should >look up at the screen, however I have no idea why, and I don't and it doesn't >seem to bother me! >------------ Ever tried looking UP at a screen when you are wearing bifocal (or Varilux) spectacles. I am sat at an old PERQ with its screen set as low as possible, and I still have to tilt my head back to get the top of the screen in focus.
smb@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (Steven M. Bellovin) (10/27/89)
In article <1646@cbnewsj.ATT.COM>, ncas@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (clifford.a.stevens..jr) writes: > In article <1932@dover.sps.mot.com>, talent@dover.sps.mot.com (Steve Talent) writes: > > In article <15349@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) writes: > > I now type with my wrists flat and the problem rarely occurs. Sit upright > > with your elbows about the same height as the lower edge of the keyboard. > > Your forearm will be inclined 3 to 5 degrees from horizontal. One reason > > I believe I developed bad typing posture before is that my chair was too > > low relative to the keyboard. I had to reach up to the keyboard and because > > of arm fatigue I would rest my wrists on the table. > > This is good, but sitting at chair high enough for your wrists might make your > screen too low relative to your eyes. My physical therapist says you should > look up at the screen, however I have no idea why, and I don't and it doesn't > seem to bother me! According to my orthopedist, neck problems are the second-most common occupational hazard among programmers -- that he sees, at any rate. The most common is wrist problems; it could be carpal tunnel syndrome (I know at least one programmer who's had surgery because of it), or it could be tendonitis. I'm still wrestling with that -- figuratively speaking, because I've got an damnably uncomfortable wrist splint on right now, and I'm taking anti-inflammatories, etc. Yes, wrist position is very important. Apparently, holding your wrists too high up, to keep them off the table or keyboard edge, is bad, too. More as I get more details, both from the doctor and from a friend who's a physical therapist specializing in hands. --Steve Bellovin
mg32+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Ginsberg) (10/28/89)
OK... I have a question... As a programmer/student/computer_operator, I type a heck of a lot (far too much for my body's good) and already, on occasion, feel some weakness and pain in my wrists... which could be anything from plain exhaustion to something far worse... Now I like tactile feel (the feeling of a "click" - of the key being pushed back up by a tight spring beneath a certain depression level) but as I sit and read the posts on this bboard, it occurred to me that this may be more damaging than a "mushy" keyboard, which, so it seems, may be a lot less stressful... Well, even though I love my Northgate keyboard, should I, in preparation of another few dozen years, go and put back my original motherboard (one that is incredibly mushy), keep this one (for some reason I cannot currently think of) or keep this one (because it doesn't make a difference one way or another)? --Michael Ginsberg Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARPA: mg32+@andrew.cmu.edu |Electrocution, n: BITNET:mg32%andrew@cmccvb | Burning at the stake with UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mg32+ | all the modern improvements. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sex is not the answer. Sex is the question. Yes is the answer.
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (10/28/89)
So *that's* why people started raising the monitor 6 inches above the keyboard. Listen up... I *hate* that practice. I'm not a good typist, and can't touch- type. With the monitor way up there I can't keep an eye on my keyboard and the screen at the same time. Yes, I know I need to learn to touch-type. One of these days. In the meantime I stick the computer on the floor where it belongs (at home I have an Amiga which has a low enough profile it doesn't bother me). -- `-_-' Peter da Silva <peter@ficc.uu.net> <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. 'U` -------------- +1 713 274 5180. "That particular mistake will not be repeated. There are plenty of mistakes left that have not yet been used." -- Andy Tanenbaum (ast@cs.vu.nl)
tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (10/29/89)
In <6713@ficc.uu.net> peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
Peter> So *that's* why people started raising the monitor 6 inches
Peter> above the keyboard.
So *that's* why I became a good typist. I'm not a home-row typist but
I'm pretty fast and don't have to look at the keyboard. Now that I
think about it, it probably is related to the fact that the bottom of
the CRT in my monitor is 13 inches higher that desk level.
Incidentally, I don't feel as though I've ever had problems with my
hands or wrists, in spite of the fact that I spend so much time at the
keyboard. Generally my keyboard is a little higher than waist height,
which seems to be good. I also change my seating position frequently
enough to give it some variety. At the moment the butt of the palm of
my left hand is resting on the desk and my right fore arm is resting
on my crossed leg at about an inch above keyboard height. I should
move soon though because my foot is falling asleep. Gronk.
Dave
--
(setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@itsgw.rpi.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) (10/31/89)
I'm not a doctor, but my wife and some others I know have had this problem. It's called Karpal Tunnel Syndrome. The Karpal Tunnel is a ring of muscle in your wrist. It encircles the blood supply and nerves leading to three of four fingers (and thumb? I forget). When stressed or damaged, it has a tendency to swell inward, which reduces the blood flow to your fingers and may pinch the nerves too. The symptoms of real Karpal Tunnel syndrome are chronic, moderately severe pain, weakness in the affected fingers, and cold hands. A surgical treatment is to cut the karpal tunnel, loosening it and restoring blood flow (at the cost of weakening the wrist?). The medical treatment is use of aspirin, ibupropen or other anti-inflammatory drugs, hot pads, wax baths, ultrasound, (and other PT things) and ceasing the activity that caused the problem. It often goes away in a couple of months if you stop re-injuring it.