chip@tct.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) (06/26/90)
According to polvino@acsu.buffalo.edu (joseph s polvino): >I truly believe that too much computing resources can have negative effects. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Computing power is weakness. Yeah, right. >Now that laser printers are popular, font hoarding is common. Oh, heaven forbid that people should have NONESSENTIALS in their work environment! Quick, throw away that picture of your family -- it's not ESSENTIAL! Um, right. >The whole point I'm trying to make is that forcing computers to do things that >can be done easier by humans is harmful to industry. Force? I don't see anyone robbing offices of Post-It Notes at gunpoint. Computers are tools. If people use the wrong tool for any job, they're less effective. Nothing new here. >I seriously recommend Mr. Dvorak's column. >He has a humorous way of telling the truth. I also recommend Dvorak's column for humor. Not truth, though. -- Chip Salzenberg at ComDev/TCT <chip@tct.uucp>, <uunet!ateng!tct!chip>
davidc@montagar.uucp (David L. Cathey) (06/27/90)
In article <29256@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>, polvino@acsu.buffalo.edu (joseph s polvino) writes: > I recently read an article written by John C. Dvorak in the June, 1990 issue > of _PC/Computing_ (p. 17) titled, "Civilization and Its PC Discontents." I > would like to expand on his ideas and add a few of my own. > > I truly believe that too much computing resources can have negative effects. > ... I think there is a lot of wasted uses of not just computers, but technology in general. Talking Coke machines? Musical greeting cards? I do agree that with the detrimental effect of computers. I've witnessed people spending hours getting a stupid little cutsie to work right when the time could have been spent better elsewhere. This does not only apply to "Where am I" messages, pictures, etc but also production code where the programmer does something cutsie just because it's "neat". Had the programmer used common system-supplied functions, the code would be much easier to support. Instead when it breaks or needs modification, it is re-written using common system-supplied functions resulting in more wasted time and effort. > > =============================================================================== > | Joseph S. Polvino | "More than anything, I hate | > | INTERNET: polvino@cs.buffalo.edu | Indian givers. No wait... | > | BITNET: polvino%cs.buffalo.edu@ubvm.bitnet | I take that back..." | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - David L. Cathey INET:davidc%montagar@egsner.cirr.com "Nurse, he's out of his room again!" UUCP:...!texbell!egsner!montagar!davidc
paul@unhtel.uucp (Paul S. Sawyer) (06/27/90)
In article <29318@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> polvino@acsu.Buffalo.EDU (joseph s polvino) writes: > >I think you missed my point and got a little rude there. The point I was >making dealt with people wasting TIME and MONEY with immature bells and >whistles, like having all kinds of cute noises and pictures pop up. Wouldn't >you agree that playing with all these techno-trinkets has negative effects, >such as wasting time? It depends on what you consider wasting time. The people who are playing are learning about their machine, becoming more comfortable and confident in using it, they are adopting the machine as THEIRS, something personal, rather than a mysterious gadget that will break if they press the wrong key. When the "trinkets" become tiresome, they will put them aside and adopt some of the "power user" hints and tips that come along from some of the same sources as the trinkets more easily than those who are discouraged from doing anything that might be considered "fun" at work.... >And I'm not saying that we shouldn't have computers. They make life a hell of >a lot easier. But they also tempt a lot of people with lots of neat features >that (could) distract from what their primary purpose is: to make things >easier. No need for flames dude! > >And if you're going to respond, please respond to the paragraph directly >above. That was the point I was trying to get across. > I'm not sure that their PRIMARY purpose is to make things EASIER - many things would just not be done if the computer did not do them, or they would not be done as accurately. But they certainly would not get done if people who need to use computers are afraid of them, uncomfortable using them, or feel they need the blessing of people like Dvorak before trying anything different. -- Paul S. Sawyer uunet!unh!unhtel!paul paul@unhtel.UUCP UNH Telecommunications attmail!psawyer p_sawyer@UNHH.BITNET Durham, NH 03824-3523 VOX: +1 603 862 3262 FAX: +1 603 862 2030
haines@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (Matt Haines) (06/27/90)
(David L. Cathey) writes: | (joseph s polvino) writes: | > I truly believe that too much computing resources can have negative effects. | > ... | | I think there is a lot of wasted uses of not just computers, but | technology in general. Talking Coke machines? Musical greeting cards? Oh, and what do you guys think of spending hours every week reading the News?? | | I do agree that with the detrimental effect of computers. I've | witnessed people spending hours getting a stupid little cutsie to work right | when the time could have been spent better elsewhere. Where? Spending time trying to get something "cutsie" working is valuable in my opinion. I haven't met very many programmers that can work nonstop for 8 or more hours at a time. Everyone needs to take a break and let their mind wander a bit. I beleive that "playing" with the system is good for relieving the tension of programming in addition to being useful for learning new system functions. I have spent many hours playing with Unix tools, such as Bourne shell scripts, awk, sed, ..., and I feel that I am a more capable "user" because of it. I suppose I could have spent the time in front of a Coke machine munching on a twinkie. | This does not only apply | to "Where am I" messages, pictures, etc but also production code where the | programmer does something cutsie just because it's "neat". | Had the programmer used common system-supplied functions, the code would | be much easier to support. | Instead when it breaks or needs modification, it is re-written using | common system-supplied functions resulting in more wasted time and effort. | | David L. Cathey I have met many people that are satisfied with what they know and are unwilling to learn anything new because they don't want to spend the time. Well, gotta go help one of them unjam the card reader. Matt. -- Matt Haines <haines@cs.colostate.edu> | "Don't take life too seriously ... Colorado State University, CS Dept. | you'll never get out of it alive!" 503 University Services Center | - ?? Ft. Collins, CO 80523 | (303) 491-1943 |
mwm@raven.pa.dec.com (Mike (Real Amigas have keyboard garages) Meyer) (06/28/90)
In article <7723@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM> toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) writes: Things computers are not useful for: [...] > Address book: Mine is written down. I used to have one of those. It was always full of post-it's and While-You-Were-Out memos with phone numbers on them. It was a pain to use. Then I moved the whole mess to a computerized database. Nothing fancy, just a central place to put all the numbers. No more post-its etc. all over the place. Everything is there, just a grep away. I can print a version to cram into my pockets whenever I need it; I can even print labels to slap into a rollodex. Even better, at work it was trivial to change the function that found names to check the online copies of the phone lists for my work group and for DECs Palo Alto Campus. If I ever want to print a form letter to some subset of that list - well, that's trivial. In short, I use the computer for what it's good and I'm lousy at - organizing and searching text. That doesn't prevent me from having a printed copy to take with me when I need it. Let's go on to the others.... > Calendar functions: in trouble if not by machine. I'm not a great fan of those. However, since I do most of my work at a machine, it's nice to have the calendar function open requesters to remind me of things I need to do. Further, I get announcements of meetings & the like through email, not paper-mail. So I've always got the calender handy when I need it for work. > Calculator functions: the latest PCTools has a calculator which mimics my > HP-16C. I'll continue to use my HP-16C, thank you! That calculator is pretty silly thing to have. On the other hand, having something that lets me cut numbers from a document I'm working on, crunch them some, and paste them back is much handier than any handheld calculator. Especially if it keeps a tape of calculations, and you can have all of that plus the document in front of you. > Other Databases: Take more time to enter the data than I'd ever spend > accessing the data. Depends a lot on what's there, and why. I have a database of a PD disk collection available for the Amiga. I spend _far_ more time looking for things in it than I do entering them. Of course, I've automated the data entry process to use the contents files on the disks, and I like to help people who ask questions like "How can I do X" or "Is there a utility to do X". Also, if you keep a copy of a database other than where what it catalogs is, then you can use that database for insurance purposes. In that case, the best of all possible results is that you never reference it. > Notepads: Postit Notes (tm), real paper and pencil, do a better job for > most things. True. About the only time I use the computer for such is when the data is already on the computer. Snapshotting a region of the screen for future reference, or possibly a hunk of text (depending on what I'm going to do with it later) can be handy. Hmm - looking back over this, it looks like most of your complaints are "you spend more time putting that stuff into the computer than you save once it's there", and most of my answers are "but that doesn't apply if the data is already on the computer." Perhaps there's something deeper in that... <mike -- And then I saw her... Mike Meyer She was a bright red '64 GTO mwm@relay.pa.dec.com With fins and gills like some giant piranha fish, decwrl!mwm Some obscene phallic symbol on wheels.
woody@eos.UUCP (Wayne Wood) (06/28/90)
In article <7693@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> haines@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (Matt Haines) writes: Matt Haines <haines@cs.colostate.edu> | "Don't take life too seriously ... >Colorado State University, CS Dept. | you'll never get out of it alive!" >503 University Services Center | - ?? >Ft. Collins, CO 80523 | (303) 491-1943 | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i believe you can attribute this to Jim Morrison... i also believe the last line reads, "nobody gets out of here alive..." /*** woody **************************************************************** *** ...tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I... *** *** -- David Gilmour, Pink Floyd *** ****** woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov *** my opinions, like my mind, are my own ******/
toma@bit.UUCP (Tom Arneberg) (06/28/90)
In article <7723@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM> toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) writes: > >Things computers are not useful for: >2. Personal databases (recipes, record collections, Christmas card mailing > lists) because you spend far too much time setting them up than using > them. > >Address book: Mine is written down. I always have it -- even can use it >to look up a telephone number in a phone booth. My finger is capable of >dialing or tapping out a phone number, no telco jack required! I can also >print a mailing address on an envelope faster than I can switch my printer >from continuous feed paper to single feed envelopes. (Note, for frequently >used mailing lists, the computer is just fine!) I agree with most of your posting (i.e. computers aren't that useful for most "home" uses), but I can't imagine going back to the days of a paper address book. Maybe it's a function of age of your friends, but people in their 20's (most of my friends) seem to change address an average of once every year or two. I finally gave up my heavy-with-whiteout address book in 1984 and have been keeping all addresses in a database on my Mac since then. The key, of course, is to PRINT THE THING OUT every few months, and carry THAT around with you just as you do your paper address book. (I also couldn't go back to hand-addressing Christmas envelopes!!) One more useful thing you forgot: home fincances, at least for tracking and categorizing of expenditures. ============================================================================== /\_______\ /\___\ Thomas R. Arneberg, Senior CAD Engineer \/__ __/ / / \ Bipolar Integrated Technology, Beaverton, Ore. / / / / / /\ \ (World's fastest floating point/RISC chips!) / / / /\_\ / / /==\ \ /\_\ UUCP: ...!{harvard!ogicse,sun,decwrl}!bit!toma \/__/ \/_/ \/__/ \__\\/_/ Internet: bit!toma@cse.ogi.edu
new@udel.EDU (Darren New) (06/28/90)
In article <57@bit.UUCP> toma@bit.UUCP (Tom Arneberg) writes: >I agree with most of your posting (i.e. computers aren't that useful for >most "home" uses), but I can't imagine going back to the days of a paper >address book. Maybe it's a function of age of your friends, but people in >their 20's (most of my friends) seem to change address an average of >once every year or two. I have a computerized address book, schedule, calendar, clock, memo pad, to-do list, time manager, language translator, calculator with screen-tape, and so on. It talks to my personal computer and to my printer and can be copied to other computers of the same type. It's about as big as a paperback book and fits easily in my pocket. I find it infinitely more useful than these same functions on a non-portable computer. It's made by Sharp and is called a Wizard. Who says computers can't do ``home'' stuff? You just need the right computer for the job! -- Darren
keith@sunpix.East.Sun.COM ( Sun Visualization Products) (06/28/90)
Distribution: na
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Research Triangle Park, NC
In article <7723@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM# toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) writes:
#Things computers are useful for:
[ Things Tom finds useful]
#
#Things computers are not useful for:
#1. "Electronic Desktop" -- see below
#2. Personal databases (recipes, record collections, Christmas card mailing
# lists) because you spend far too much time setting them up than using
# them.
#3. Making/keeping notes (even with a "lap-top")
#4. Dealing with photographic images or US Mail.
#5. On-line, "hypertext" documentation (garbage, IMHO)
#6. Many others.
I think the key is that "One man's garbage is another man's treasure."
I'll illustrate by showing my reactions to each of your "useless computer
features".
#
#The "Electronic Desktop" is part of the paperless office nonsense. Back
#before personal computers I attempted to keep my appointment calendar on
#a computer. This didn't work because 1) not always at the terminal, 2) terminal
#not always logged in 3) computer not always "up".
As a software developer, I'm at my workstation much more often than I can
find that stupid paper calendar. Also, it lets me set the weekly meetings
in with a few keystrokes instead of a very repetitive writing exercise.
In addition, I have a tendency to lost track of time when I'm working,
so the fact that it beeps at me when I have a meeting is a definite
advantage.
#I've used several different PC desktops: Sidekick, WordPerfect Library,
#PC Tools Desktop, a couple of shareware packages, and discarded them all
#quickly. Why?
#
#Calendar functions: in trouble if not by machine. To use at home or office
#requires dragging a floppy disk (with the calendar file) back and forth,
#copying the file twice a day. And what if I'm at a meeting, in the car, etc?
#Honestly, I have a DayTimer (tm) and have been using it for 10 years. I don't
#plan to stop. It's always with me. Has quick access time, and is easy to
#make new entries.
For me, the same comments apply as for the appointment calendar.
#
#Calculator functions: the latest PCTools has a calculator which mimics my
#HP-16C. I'll continue to use my HP-16C, thank you! Has anyone ever compared
#ease of operation of a real calculator vs one of these simulations? Ugh!
#And the HP calculator is far more portable than my PC. I can "pop it up"
#over absolutely any application, character based, graphic, even non-computer,
#and it always works!
Ah, but I sometimes have trouble finding the calculator (Let's see, is it
here under K&R, or what...) In addition, I can drag those 8 digit hex
numbers from one application into the calculator with a lot less chance
of error and more quickly than typing in on the calculator. Then, when I'm
finished, I can take the calculated number and put it back in my application
or program faster than I could retype it from the calculator screen.
#Address book: Mine is written down. I always have it -- even can use it
#to look up a telephone number in a phone booth. My finger is capable of
#dialing or tapping out a phone number, no telco jack required! I can also
#print a mailing address on an envelope faster than I can switch my printer
#from continuous feed paper to single feed envelopes. (Note, for frequently
#used mailing lists, the computer is just fine!)
I'm not using an automatic dialer where I work now, but when I had a PC
at work, I would often use Sidekick to dial those 20 digit access code
and phone number combinations much easier and quicker and err-free than I could
look up a rolodex or address book and then dial by hand.
#Other Databases: Take more time to enter the data than I'd ever spend
#accessing the data.
Depends on how much analysis I need to do on the data. Also, we finally
put our record collection in a database after the third time we went
to a album closeout sale and either bought records we already had or
didn't buy a record we wanted because we thought we already had it.
Putting it in the computer took no more time
than it would have to write it all down or type it out, but allows
it to be sorted for easier reading. Also, when we lose the printed
copy, as we did when we moved, its easy enough to print out another one.
#Notepads: Postit Notes (tm), real paper and pencil, do a better job for
#most things. Sometime I even want to add some comments to some printed
#material. I suppose the modern technique would require I get a scanner
#and suck in the document, then add comments using a drawing program??
#For serious use, I prefer a topnotch programmer's editor or word processing
#package.
I agree for some things, but when you have handwriting as bad as mine... #)
Also, I type faster than I write, so sometimes that can come in handy.
#Clock: Computers are about the world's most expensive timepiece. And my
#$20, 6 year old Casio keeps better time than my Everex Step 25.
Perhaps, but when my Seiko needed a new battery, my Sun kept on ticking.
#ASCII Table: One is posted on my wall. Always visible.
I don't consult it often enough to clutter my wall with it, but on the
PC, it was nice to able to see what graphics characters corresponded to
what codes, and now when I need it, I just use "man ascii".jharkins@sagpd1.UUCP (Jim Harkins) (06/29/90)
In article <29256@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> polvino@acsu.buffalo.edu (joseph s polvino) writes: >I truly believe that too much computing resources can have negative effects. Sure, you have to buy a thicker pad for your chair, get new glasses more often, invest in house wiring upgrades, buy decaf coffee, turn up the air conditioner, etc. >How about the PC fanatic who has 5 different TSR programs >to pop up everything from an alarm clock to a scientific calculator. Well lets see. In my toolbox I've got about 10 diffent screwdrivers in different sizes with both slot and phillips heads, a couple different types of pliers, a socket wrench set in both SI and metric units, etc. To be honest, as good a handyman as I am I could get by with just a medium sized screwdriver and a pair of vice grips :-) >Seriously, wouldn't it be easier to stick a printout of the ASCII table on >your wall rather than having it waste memory? Nope, I've got an ascii Snoopy there already. The ones I put into my drawers I can never find when I want them, likewise I have half a dozen books with ASCII tables, I just don't know which half dozen they are. >Now that laser printers are popular, font hoarding is common. Do you really >need 60 fonts on your hard drive? Mr. Dvorak writes about this "typeface >indecision obsession complex. Well, now that CD players are common so is hoarding of disks. Lets be honest, I can only stick 6 disks in my player at a time, why should I have any more? Jeez, I sure do waste a lot of time trying to figure out which 6 of my 100+ disks I want immediately accesible. >The most blatently wasteful piece of software is the one (can't remember the >name) that displays a graphic message on the screen describing your >whereabouts. I know a lot of people who would nominate the program 'rn'. :-) >The whole point I'm trying to make is that forcing computers to do things that >can be done easier by humans is harmful to industry. Think of all the time >and money wasted by non-constructive use of computers. I seriously recommend >Mr. Dvorak's column. He has a humorous way of telling the truth. Computers are tools. Actually, I would liken a well stocked hard drive to a well stocked tool box. Sure, there's usually only 1 tool thats best for a job but there's been times where I tried several tools to find that one. I've also got tools that I used once, as well as novelty tools that aren't very useful (like one made to pull wheels off covered wagons). The one thing my assortment does is let me experiment. Now I understand you are probably smarter than me and can learn very well from books and newspapers, but I learn best when I experiment. If I remember correctly, UNIX was written so a couple of hackers could run space war easier. Definate waste of time there! -- jim jharkins@sagpd1 I hate to see you go, but I love to see you walk away.
jdudeck@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (John R. Dudeck) (07/01/90)
>Then I moved the whole mess to a computerized database. Nothing fancy, >just a central place to put all the numbers. No more post-its etc. all I have found that this the only way I don't lose addresses. I'm too cheap to buy a Day-Timer, since I don't ever have a complex schedule. But I do get the little date books every year that different companies give out. I fill up the back with addresses and phone numbers, but then at the end of the year, I need a place to record them without copying everything to the new book (since I never know which ones I'll need, I just want to file them away somewhere in case I ever need them). It is the only thing I use Windows 2.1 for... I have a cutesy picture on the front card so that I see it when I start it up :^) -- John Dudeck "I always ask them, How well do jdudeck@Polyslo.CalPoly.Edu you want it tested?" ESL: 62013975 Tel: 805-545-9549 -- D. Stearns