jsaker@zeus.unomaha.edu (Jamie Saker) (02/05/91)
This afternoon, I received an "entertaining" form letter in my U.S. Mailbox from Fred Larson, Vice President of Prodigy Services Company. Because of the discussions in various newsgroups about PRODIGY, I thought I'd post the letter and hear what others have to say about it. I'd be especially interested in hearing PRODIGY user's and ex-user's comments. I'm considering taking up their offer, just to see what kind of service and software they have set up... (what's that they say about know thy enemy? :-) ) Naturally, I have absolutely NO connection with PRODIGY, IBM or Sears. --------letter begins------------------------------------------------------ ___________________________________________________________________________ This is your invitation to join over a half-million computer users who have discovered how PRODIGY(R) Service Membership lets them do things in a whole new way - easily and conveniently. Best of all, you can enjoy full Membership priviledges for 30 days and, if you don't think it's as exciting as we say, you don't have to pay a thing for that month's membership fee! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Computer User: In this letter, I'm going to tell you about something truly amazing. To get an idea of how incredible the PRODIGY service is, imagine this: The year is 1948. You've just purchased a TV set, a huge console with a little screen. While you're watching "Arthur Godfrey's Talent Scouts," you go through your mail. You find a letter describing something called Cable TV. "Over 100 channels," says the letter. "A network for every interest." "Beautiful color reception." "Yes," you think as you squint at the fuzzy black and white image on your new set, "This Cable TV sounds wonderful. And it's about as likely that we'll put a man on the moon." Well, what I'm about to describe will make your computer seem like a 1948 Philco TV set. But that's where my analogy ends, because the PRODIGY service is not something that's coming way off in the future. It's here now, and toward the end of this letter, I'll even tell you how you can try it without risk. First, you get connected... --------------------------- Getting started on the PRODIGY service is even easier than hooking up to Cable TV. You simply "hook up" your computer, via a phone line and modem, to our network. It's easy to do. And once you do, you'll find you're connected to hundreds of features that can enhance your enjoyment of the things that interest you most. Let's say, for instance, that ----------------------------- you're interested in personal finance... ---------------------------------------- There are thousands of PRODIGY Service Members who are a lot like you. You'll find them on our Money Talk Bulletin Board, where you can exchange tips, ideas and viewpoints online. You'll also find advice about taxes, real estate, personal investments and more, from sources such as Julian Block, Robert Bruss, Brendan Boyd and "Changing Times" magazine. So much for _talking_ about making money. The PRODIGY service also lets you do something about it. If you're an investor, you'll use the PRODIGY service to get stock quotes provided by Dow Jones News/ Retrieval almost as fast as your broker can. You can even track your entire stock portfolio (up to 30 securities) automatically. There's also a feature that gives you instant access to updated stories about specific companies. And with our online discount brokerage service, you can place buy and sell orders long after your broker has gone home. With all of these features, your investment decisions will be informed --- and timely. But whether or not you're an active investor, you'll love our online banking.* (*Bank fees may apply). Pay bills automatically (without writing checks), see account balances when you want, transfer funds and more. It's a terrific convenience. Now let's say you're interested in travel... --------------------------------------------- The PRODIGY service has a Travel Bulletin Board where Members (and our online travel experts) exchange ideas. You can get a great tip here, whether you're going to the Far East or the Midwest, travelling alone or with your family. The Mobil Travel Guide(TM) helps you choose what sights to see all across America. And you can get special Members-only deals on tour packages and cruises. When you know where you're going, you can book your own flights, hotels, and rental cars with EAASY SABRE and find the lowest available domestic and international airfares. And before you leave, check the Accu-Weather(R) forecasts for more than 325 cities, foreign and domestic. ...or just about anything else. ------------------------------- Like sports? The PRODIGY service can give you scores even _while_games_ _are_in_progress_, with information from SportsTicker. And try your hand at our trivia quizzes and contests. (Last year, a Member won a trip to the Super Bowl(TM) ) Entertainment? You'll find reviews on music, videos, movies and books, including a column by Gene Siskel. On our Arts Club Bulletin Board, you can "talk" to Members on just about any topic from Mailer to Mahler to MGM to MTV. If you're going out, the Zagat Restaurant Survey will provide descriptions of eateries by type of cuisine, price and location. Staying in? Discover the gems at your video store (and avoid the bombs) by consulting our Movie Guide, with descriptions of over 13,000 films. And _Consumer_Reports_ Ratings can help you find the autio and video equipment best suited to you. You can even order electronic equipment online and get the guarenteed lowest prices on many items. Or choose from a huge selection of CD's, cassettes, and videos. Into computers? Our Computer Club Bulletin Board has animated discussions about hardware, software and online services, including some really hot tips. The online Software Guide can give you input on over 540 programs, so you can spend your money on the software that's right for you. In fact, you can even spend _less_ money, because when you order software on the PRODIGY service, you'll get some great discount prices. Have kids? Your PRODIGY Service Membership includes them, too (at no additional charge). They'll find dozens of features, like an entire encyclopedia (it would cost more than $700 if you bought it in hard cover), online and updated quarterly. There's also the popular geographical adventure game, "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?". The WGBH show, NOVA, has a feature with fascinating science experiments. _Weekly_Reader_(R) lets kids help write short stories. And the SmartKids(SM) Quiz tests their knowledge on everything from astronomy to zoology. Just want to have fun? Let us entertain you. With games, contests, humor and lots more. Some of our Members spend hours just using Electronic Mail and Bulletin Boards. And why not? Membership includes 30 free personal messages to other members per month and you pay _no_access_charges_and_no_timed_usage_charges. More on that in a moment. The PRODIGY service puts great values at ---------------------------------------- your fingertips! ---------------- If you think that big savings and big crowds have to go hand in hand, think again. Think about shopping on the PRODIGY service! Just press some buttons, or click your mouse, and get the _lowest_ _authorized_dealer_prices_ on name brand photographic equipment, tableware and more. Save 20% off retail on men's apparel. Shop from some of the world's best-known catalogs and department stores. Take advantage of special deals for PRODIGY Service Members only. And discover what may just be the world's easiest way to sho for and send gifts. In some areas, you can even do your grocery shopping online. If you think the PRODIGY service sounds incredible, --------------------------------------------------- wait until you see the value. ----------------------------- I mentioned earlier that, unlike other online services, we do not charge for the time you spend on the service. In other words, you can access all the features mentioned in this letter and the enclosed brochure over regular phone lines for as long as you want. And all it costs is _just_$12.95_a_month_* (*Membership includes 30 free messages per month. Additional messages will be billed at only $.25 each.) (plus tax) What's more, that monthly Membership fee is for your whole family, so up to 6 members of your household can enroll on the service and have access to as many of the features as _they_ like. You'll still pay just $12.95 a month! And, for no additional charge, you'll get plenty of additional Member benefits. Like a monthly newsletter. Invitations to free seminars in your area. See the back of the enclosed Membership Card for a complete list of benefits. If everything I've described still sounds too good to believe, we've -------------------------------------------------------------------- got a special offer to let you see for yourself -- without --------------------------------------------------------- risking a penny for Membership! ------------------------------- To fully understand how incredible the PRODIGY service is, and all it can do for you, you've got to see it in action. And I fully understand that, while you may be interested, you may feel you don't have enough information to lay down your money. Okay, don't. Just return the enclosed Order Card. Or call the toll-free number on it. We'll send you a PRODIGY Service Start-up Kit, complete with PRODIGY software, FREE. Then enjoy the service for a month by taking advantage of full Membership priviledges. You've got a month to decide if PRODIGY Service Membership is everything I've said it is. If you agree, find. Just pay your first bill when it comes, and your Membership will continue. But if you don't agree, simply mark the bill "cancel," return it, and your Membership and first month's Membership fee of $12.95 will be cancelled. The Start-up Kit is yours to keep. Furthermore, even if you do continue, you can still cancel whenever you like. _There's_never_an_obligation_or_commitment_ _to_continue_. With nothing to lose, and so much to gain, why not take advantage of our No-Risk Trial Offer today? I look forward to welcome you as a Member. Sincerely, Fred Larson Vice President P.S. The back of the Order Card explains what your computer needs to receive the PRODIGY service. We realize that not all computer owners have a modem, so we have made an arrangement to provide a Hayes(R) Personal Modem 2400 to those who need one for just $149.95 plus tax. See the Order Card for details. ------------------------------END---------------------------------------------- | Jamie Saker jsaker@zeus.unomaha.edu Public Relations Director ||| || C&DC Consultant jsaker@orion.unomaha.edu UNO Student Chapter of the || ||| "Go Hawkeyes!" JSAKER@UNOMA1 (bitnet) Assoc. for Computing Machinery | [Include your standard fool-proof disclaimer here]
cws9669@isc.rit.edu (C.W. Southern ) (02/06/91)
I will not even consider subcribing to Prodigy until they link up with
the rest of the networking world!!!!! It might not look as nice but I will
stick with CompuServe.
--
______ ______
/ /_____ Christopher Southern INTERNET: cws9669@ultb.rit.edu
/ / RIT - Software Engineering BITNET: cws9669@ritvax
/______ ______/ (716) 475-4111 UUCP: !uunet!rit!cws9669cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Conway Yee) (02/06/91)
In article <7569.27addc02@zeus.unomaha.edu> jsaker@zeus.unomaha.edu (Jamie Saker) writes: >This afternoon, I received an "entertaining" form letter in my U.S. Mailbox >from Fred Larson, Vice President of Prodigy Services Company. >Because of the discussions in various newsgroups about PRODIGY, I >thought I'd post the letter and hear what others have to say about >it. I'd be especially interested in hearing PRODIGY user's and >ex-user's comments. > >--------letter begins------------------------------------------------------ [Much of letter deleted] >Best of all, you can enjoy full Membership priviledges for 30 days and, >if you don't think it's as exciting as we say, you don't have to pay a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >thing for that month's membership fee! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ . . . >If you agree, find. Just pay your first bill when it comes, and your >Membership will continue. But if you don't agree, simply mark the ^^^^^^^ >bill "cancel," return it, and your Membership and first month's ^^^^ >Membership fee of $12.95 will be cancelled. The Start-up Kit is >yours to keep. Furthermore, even if you do continue, you can still >cancel whenever you like. _There's_never_an_obligation_or_commitment_ >_to_continue_. So the month's membership is free iff (if and only if) you decide that you don't like Prodigy. If you like Prodigy, they get to ream you for that month's membership fee. Interesting. It doesn't sound like that great an offer. Conway Yee, N2JWQ yee@ming.mipg.upenn.edu (preferred) 231 S. Melville St. cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (forwarded to above) Philadelphia, Pa 19139 yee@bnlx26.nsls.bnl.gov (rarely checked) (215) 386-1312
chuck@mrcnext.uiuc.edu (charles bridgeland) (02/06/91)
harumph. a whole lotta gee whiz. not a whole lotta reason anyone who can get 'here' (usenet/internet) would be interested. (on top of that, you're out in the cold unless you have an msdos or mac.) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- chuck bridgeland---anarchoRepublican --don't forget, we surround _them_, not the other way around" chuck@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu hire me so I can quit this pit. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
peb@Autodesk.COM (Paul Baclaski) (02/06/91)
In the [paraphrased] words of Frank Zappa:
"Is that a real network, or a Sears network?"barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (02/06/91)
In article <1991Feb5.230021.8317@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> chuck@mrcnext.uiuc.edu (charles bridgeland) writes: > not a whole lotta reason anyone who can get 'here' (usenet/internet) >would be interested. Hmm. Where's the Usenet/Internet encyclopedia (no -- the ability to ask questions of zillions of experts is not the same thing). Is there an online store, stock quote service, airline guide, etc., on Usenet/Internet? I don't have a Prodigy account because I don't personally happen to need those things at the moment, but I can appreciate their value. -- Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
bgeer@javelin.es.com (Bob Geer) (02/06/91)
barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: >In article <1991Feb5.230021.8317@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> chuck@mrcnext.uiuc.edu (charles bridgeland) writes: >> not a whole lotta reason anyone who can get 'here' (usenet/internet) >>would be interested. >Hmm. Where's the Usenet/Internet encyclopedia (no -- the ability to ask >questions of zillions of experts is not the same thing). Is there an >online store, stock quote service, airline guide, etc., on Usenet/Internet? Prodigy has some interesting stuff not readily available on the net, but is limited to computer & arts/entertainment BBSs, it could really use a sports BBS, message length & content is severly limited, no programs or gif's to download, a rather idiot user interface, & since it reaches a wider population than the net, the general flavor of info is a lot less academic. On the otherhand, I have met some really interesting electronic pen pals on Prodigy & there's no one on the net so far with whom I regularly correspond. I prefer the net, but will I always have access? I mean, you just don't dial in if your next employer doesn't support a new connection (or your current employer is antagonistic about it)! Prodigy is a mediocre alternative, but not without some benefit. -- <> Bob `Bear' Geer <> bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com <> <> Alta-holic <> speaking only for myself, one of my many tricks <> <> Salt Lake City, <> "We must strive to be more than we are, Lal." <> <> Ootah <> -- Cmdr. Data, learning schmaltz <>
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb6.035111.9270@Think.COM> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: >In article <1991Feb5.230021.8317@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> chuck@mrcnext.uiuc.edu (charles bridgeland) writes: >> not a whole lotta reason anyone who can get 'here' (usenet/internet) >>would be interested. > >Hmm. Where's the Usenet/Internet encyclopedia (no -- the ability to ask >questions of zillions of experts is not the same thing). Is there an >online store, stock quote service, airline guide, etc., on Usenet/Internet? But why would anyone, especially someone net.aware, spend $12.95 a month to get those things from Prodigy (at their gawdawfully slow data rate) when the same things are available from GEnie for only $4.95/month? -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
wisniewski@fallout.uucp (02/07/91)
>> not a whole lotta reason anyone who can get 'here' (usenet/internet) >>would be interested. > > Hmm. Where's the Usenet/Internet encyclopedia (no -- the ability to ask > questions of zillions of experts is not the same thing). Is there an > online store, stock quote service, airline guide, etc., on Usenet/Internet? > > I don't have a Prodigy account because I don't personally happen to need > those things at the moment, but I can appreciate their value. > -- > Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. > > barmar@think.com Barry, I have purchased many books with advanced indexes that make up my personal library. It's cost exceedes over $700 and it doesn't go out of date because referance books that I buy are very consistant and added to as newer books come my way. (How often does history change after two versions anyways?) As to online stores, stock quotes, and airline guides: I use local merchants so if something is wrong with my purchase, I have a human being to go back an see. I pay a little more, but the service is much more than any ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS could give me. Ditto on the Stock Broker... Ditto on the Travel agent and a free, comprehensive airline schedule I receive when I travel. Prodigy is just an excuse to use computers and make life's general tasks more complex than they need to be. As to Email, BBS style communications, and electronic networking, these are provided to most of the general public looking for such access via public or semi public access at minimal costs in most major cities. I don't believe that Prodigy has any inbound or outbound gateway services.. it's an Island. Service is worth what you pay for it and what you get back from it. I'll take my almost free UUCP access, my local merchant infrastructure, and my books (on CDrom and paper) against any $12.95 per month subscription service that touts to give me same thing. Games, public domain software, even Dr Demento, Don't be fooled by cheap imitations, the internet is the real thing... John Wisniewski wisniewski@fallout.uucp
louisg@vpnet.chi.il.us (Louis Giliberto) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb5.182439.12289@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Conway Yee) writes: > >So the month's membership is free iff (if and only if) you decide that you >don't like Prodigy. If you like Prodigy, they get to ream you for that >month's membership fee. Interesting. It doesn't sound like that great >an offer. > > Conway Yee, N2JWQ >yee@ming.mipg.upenn.edu (preferred) 231 S. Melville St. >cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (forwarded to above) Philadelphia, Pa 19139 >yee@bnlx26.nsls.bnl.gov (rarely checked) (215) 386-1312 That's not quite right. They prebill you for each month, so you would be charged for your first PAID month's membership. The first 30 days are free. As an ex-Prodigy user, here are my thoughts. The system is one big ad. That's fine and dandy. If it helps keep the cost low, I don't mind looking at ads. I even bought a few things off of Prodigy. The problem is that there is no payoff. The message bases are terrible. There is no organization to them at all. It's impossible to pick up reading where you left off previously. Electronic mail? Hah. "Mail" implies a right to privacy which you don't have. They go through most (if not all) letters you send in E-mail. It takes longer for someone to send mail on that system than to send mail in Internet. Educational benefits? There are none. Anyone with half a brain doesn't look in an encyclopedia after grade school. Teachers hate them, and you can't possibly write a decent paper using anything from an encyclopedia. The on-line games are reminiscent of Commodore 64 public domain garbage. Totally mindless crap. I've seen BBS doors with better games. One thing that really ticked me off as an IBM owner is the fact that IBM supposedly has a hand in the system, but there was nothing on there for Microchannel. I have a hard enough time finding MCA stuff, and it would seem to me that they would at least have an ordering thing on there for that. The bottom line: Prodigy is a money-making opportunity for companies who advertise on there. There is no user-oriented anything on there. The system is one constant hard-sell. If the advertising were used to deflect the cost and make a profit for PrLE at the same time user beneficial facilities were present, then I owuld have no problem. Prodigy is more concerned with how much money they and their businesses on-line can make than giving the user anything worthile. On a high-note, the on-line news was quite good. Louis
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (02/07/91)
I received that free Prodigy kit card in the mail and sent it in. I received a 3.5 disk and two 5.25 disk and a 30 day password to use Prodigy. At the end of the month, I wrote cancel on the bill. They sent me one letter asking me to try it again. I didn't respond, and they never bothered me again. Then, two weeks later, I received another free kit card and sent it in. Sure enough, I got another kit. Same story again. So, I got two 3.5 disks for free as far as I am concerned. The truly scary thing is that the Prodigy kit is on the top fifteen software packages being sold for the IBM community. Are IBM users that green? -- John M. Adams --***-- Professional Student /// Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga BBS, Paragon 2.085 \\V// Makes it Possible Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb6.185416.20695@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) writes: >But why would anyone, especially someone net.aware, spend $12.95 a month to >get those things from Prodigy (at their gawdawfully slow data rate) when >the same things are available from GEnie for only $4.95/month? Maybe things have changed since I used GEnie (3 or 4 years ago), but doesn't GEnie have connect-time charges? The figure $5/hour springs to mind, so Prodigy beats GEnie if you would use the latter more than 1.5 hours/month. Also, Prodigy is specifically aimed at the non-net.aware, who would probably be put off by the traditional text-based GEnie interface. -- Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
technews@iitmax.iit.edu (Tech News Account) (02/07/91)
The complaint most people have about PRODIGY is NOT the services it offers,
but the actions they've taken:
(all of this is secondhand, but somewhat reliable)
From what I heard, PRODIGY removed a "alternate lifestyles" message section
because some fundie complained that homosexuality was immoral and a sin
against god...
The REAL interesting part is how prodigy is ALLEGED to have responded to
complaints about this action...
supposedly, they read people's private E-mail, and threatened to suspend the
access of the people who were behind the complaints about the deletion.
Anybody have proven FACTS about this stuff?
Personally, I don't like PRODIGY, because unlike every other publically
accessible network in the civilized world, they refuse to be interlinked with
the others... Bitnet,compuserve,Genie- Prodigy alone is snobbish.
--
Technology News- IIT`s weekly student newspaper. Subscriptions available.
kadokev@iitvax.bitnet technews@iitmax.edu
My employer disagrees. cmcurtin@bluemoon.uucp (Matthew Curtin) (02/07/91)
bgeer@javelin.es.com (Bob Geer) writes: > barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: > >In article <1991Feb5.230021.8317@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> chuck@mrcnext.uiuc.edu (c > >> not a whole lotta reason anyone who can get 'here' (usenet/internet) > >>would be interested. > >Hmm. Where's the Usenet/Internet encyclopedia (no -- the ability to ask > >questions of zillions of experts is not the same thing). Is there an > >online store, stock quote service, airline guide, etc., on Usenet/Internet? > > I prefer the net, but will I always have access? I mean, you just > don't dial in if your next employer doesn't support a new connection > (or your current employer is antagonistic about it)! Prodigy is a > mediocre alternative, but not without some benefit. If you're worried about not always having net access and want some sort of place to go with your postings, email, and other stuff, why not try Compu$erve? CompuServe is the world's largest on-line service. It has everything Prodigy could have to offer and more (and you don't need to have an MS-DOS or Mac to get on). Besides that, CompuServe doesn't charge EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA for email! Sure, there are surcharges and stuff, but the system tells you when you're about to do something that costs extra (by marking a "$" before the option). CompuServe makes Prodigy look weenie. Prodigy! Humbug! ______________________________________________________________________________ | C. Matthew Curtin ! "This is a strange game. The only way to | | P.O. Box 27081 ! win is not to play." -Joshua | | Columbus, OH 43227-0081 !---------------------------------------------| | cmcurtin@bluemoon.uucp _______!______________Apple_II_Forever!______________|
randolph@office.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) (02/08/91)
Louis Giliberto writes that Prodigy is one big ad, that there is no e-mail privacy, and Prodigy's news service is good. You know what this is? TV without the pictures and sound! Ugh, ack, phew. nd t ou ui R Press T __Randolph Fritz sun!cognito.eng!randolph || randolph@eng.sun.com ou ui Mountain View, California, North America, Earth nd t
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb6.234512.15712@Think.COM> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: > >Maybe things have changed since I used GEnie (3 or 4 years ago), but >doesn't GEnie have connect-time charges? Indeed they have. GEnie now charges a FLAT RATE $4.95/month for non-prime time access to their "star services" (a subset of their complete offering). For other things, non-prime access is (I believe) $6/hr. I tried Prodigy under their special trial offer, and cancelled it after loggin in a total of three times (the last time was merely to show someone else how lame it was). I don't subscribe to GEnie, but those I know who do subscribe agree that GEnie is a MUCH better deal than Prodigy for everyone (with the possible exception of rank beginner technophobes who can't figure out how to use Procomm PLUS). The figure $5/hour springs to >mind, so Prodigy beats GEnie if you would use the latter more than 1.5 >hours/month. > >Also, Prodigy is specifically aimed at the non-net.aware, who would >probably be put off by the traditional text-based GEnie interface. > >-- >Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. > >barmar@think.com >{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
graff@mlpvm2.iinus1.ibm.com (Michael Graff) (02/08/91)
(My first posting seems to be lost in the net. Sorry if this is a duplicate.) louisg@vpnet.chi.il.us (Louis Giliberto) writes: > Electronic mail? Hah. "Mail" implies a right to privacy which you don't have. > They go through most (if not all) letters you send in E-mail. It takes longer > for someone to send mail on that system than to send mail in Internet. This is absolutely, unequivocally false. You're confusing email with the public message boards. Many of the message boards are "previewed", so some messages are rejected, and all messages are delayed. (I won't get into whether this previewing is good or evil since it's been widely discussed elsewhere already.) But private email sent directly to another subscriber is strictly private, just like any other email service. ...Michael
drdave@buhub.bradley.edu (David L. Vessell) (02/08/91)
In <T42Zw2w163w@bluemoon.uucp> cmcurtin@bluemoon.uucp (Matthew Curtin) writes: >If you're worried about not always having net access and want some sort of >place to go with your postings, email, and other stuff, why not try >Compu$erve? CompuServe is the world's largest on-line service. It has >everything Prodigy could have to offer and more (and you don't need to >have an MS-DOS or Mac to get on). Besides that, CompuServe doesn't charge >EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA for email! Sure, there are surcharges and stuff, but >the system tells you when you're about to do something that costs extra >(by marking a "$" before the option). CompuServe makes Prodigy look >weenie. Some of us don't have the cash to pay $7.00 an hour.... Who knows anything about GEnie? Is it any good? Does it have an Internet link? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- **dR.Dave** ....making the world safe for intelligent dance music. David L. Vessell Bradley Univ. Peoria, IL drdave@buhub.bradley.edu "Is there any escape....from noise?" --Negativland =============================================================================
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (02/09/91)
>Some of us don't have the cash to pay $7.00 an hour.... > >Who knows anything about GEnie? Is it any good? Does it have an Internet >link? WARNING: PLUG ALERT...but since someone asked... The World (world.std.com), a public access unix system (Sun4/280), charges either $5/mo + $2/hr or $20/20-hrs (20/20 includes monthly, paid in advance) for e-mail (internet, most anywhere), USENET (about 2000 groups), alternet access (ftp, irc, etc.) 617-739-WRLD (9600/2400/1200), login as "new" Also available throughout the US via compuserve's packet net, addt'l $5/hr, create an acct and type "help compuserve". END PLUG ALERT -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
gardner@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Gardner) (02/09/91)
drdave@buhub.bradley.edu (David L. Vessell) writes: >Some of us don't have the cash to pay $7.00 an hour.... >Who knows anything about GEnie? Is it any good? Does it have an Internet >link? >-- Does anyone have a local phone number list? i.e. what Cities can you make a local call? mgg
jmc@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: In article <T42Zw2w163w@bluemoon.uucp> cmcurtin@bluemoon.uucp (Matthew Curtin) writes: >have an MS-DOS or Mac to get on). Besides that, CompuServe doesn't charge >EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA for email! Sure, there are surcharges and stuff, but This is unfair to Prodigy. Compuserve charges more than $12.50 per hour for any usable baud rate (if you call 1200 or 2400 usable) and so a mail message that takes 2 minutes to write costs over 40 cents (compared to Prodigy's 25 cents after the first 30 messages) to write and also costs money to read, perhaps around 8 to 10 cents if you deal with it in under 30 seconds. Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message with 30 included in the price is actually a good deal when compared to past e-mail pricing trends. Some new trends, including GEnie's unlimited e-mail (but no mailing lists) for $4.95/month, are better deals, and many here are used to the unusual deal of usenet/internet mail, but I am a bit surprised at the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message is less than the price of a stamp. The chance of timely delivery is similar.
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (02/11/91)
In article <T42Zw2w163w@bluemoon.uucp> cmcurtin@bluemoon.uucp (Matthew Curtin) writes: >have an MS-DOS or Mac to get on). Besides that, CompuServe doesn't charge >EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA for email! Sure, there are surcharges and stuff, but This is unfair to Prodigy. Compuserve charges more than $12.50 per hour for any usable baud rate (if you call 1200 or 2400 usable) and so a mail message that takes 2 minutes to write costs over 40 cents (compared to Prodigy's 25 cents after the first 30 messages) to write and also costs money to read, perhaps around 8 to 10 cents if you deal with it in under 30 seconds. Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message with 30 included in the price is actually a good deal when compared to past e-mail pricing trends. Some new trends, including GEnie's unlimited e-mail (but no mailing lists) for $4.95/month, are better deals, and many here are used to the unusual deal of usenet/internet mail, but I am a bit surprised at the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >This is unfair to Prodigy. Compuserve charges more than $12.50 per hour >for any usable baud rate (if you call 1200 or 2400 usable) and so a mail >message that takes 2 minutes to write costs over 40 cents (compared to >Prodigy's 25 cents after the first 30 messages) to write and also costs >money to read, perhaps around 8 to 10 cents if you deal with it in under >30 seconds. The two services are not comparable. You are required to type messages online with Prodigy. You are limited to 4 "pages" of 40 column text. With CompuServe, you can use any number of telecomm packages to automate your sessions, including software provided by CompuServe. The speed of sending an receiving mail is limited only by your modem speed. I use both regularly. The only reason I use Prodigy is that I have friends who use it and it isn't connected to any other service. To write that "2 minute" message, I generally have to waste more of _my_ time waiting for the brain-dead Prodigy software to trudge over to e-mail. I find Prodigy's censorship offensive and their marketing misleading in the extreme. I've offered my time to friends to show them show to use other services rather than see them waste $13 a month.
burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes:
This is unfair to Prodigy. Compuserve charges more than $12.50 per hour
for any usable baud rate (if you call 1200 or 2400 usable) and so a mail
message that takes 2 minutes to write costs over 40 cents (compared to
Prodigy's 25 cents after the first 30 messages) to write and also costs
money to read, perhaps around 8 to 10 cents if you deal with it in under
30 seconds.
Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message with 30 included in the
price is actually a good deal when compared to past e-mail pricing
trends. Some new trends, including GEnie's unlimited e-mail (but no
mailing lists) for $4.95/month, are better deals, and many here are used
to the unusual deal of usenet/internet mail, but I am a bit surprised at
the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change.
I used to have Prodigy and like it (limitations notwithstanding), but I
canceled it because of the email fee fiasco. Here are some points that
might help people understand the bad press they got:
1) They did everything they could to avoid letting people know about this
new service charge on a supposedly (and advertised as such) "flat rate"
system -- and I'm told they've received some stiff fines for this
kind of stuff. For example, I didn't know anything about the impending
email charges until somebody sent me email about it! Meanwhile, they
were trying their best to lock in people to 6-mo/12-mo/24-mo deals
by raising their monthly rates. The new rates, something like $13,
a $4 increase, were perfectly reasonable, in my opinion; and if I hadn't
gotten the email, I might well have taken the 24-mo option at, effectively,
some $8-9 a month. And then been locked in, without necessarily knowing
about it, to a $.25 fee for each email beyond 30 per month PER
HOUSEHOLD (yes, children's and spouse's emails included in the count!).
The information on the increase was there, of course, some 5 or more
menu levels deep -- if you wanted "New EMAIL features" described, or
whatever they called it. They never, to my knowledge, sent everyone
email saying simply "starting in January 1991, here are new charges
we're instituting for sending email".
The term for their actions is "bait and switch", albeit on a different
time scale than usually suggested by the term. Note that their TV ads,
after I knew about the upcoming email surcharge, continued to state
explicitly or implicitly that the service was "flat rate", as did
glossy advertising stuff I continued to receive from them.
2) The reason they instituted email charges, they later explained (after
getting lots of bad press for trying to hide the new charges), was
because a "few people" were using huge distribution lists and sending
lots of mail. This happened for two reasons: a) the distribution lists
and quantity of mail went up hugely when the new rates were discovered,
of course, which might explain why their explanation lagged the
decision to increase; b) they censor ALL their bulletin boards, and to
such an extent that getting something actually posted is something
worthy of treating yourself to a night on the town -- they rarely
explain why they did it, and when you get the email saying your post
was rejected along with the original post, there is no way to edit
it and repost. You gotta retype the whole thing. Because of this,
groups of people who wanted to freely converse (not just in the
"alt" newsfeed sense, but in the "talk" or "rec" sense, largely
missing in Prodigy bulletin boards) simply found each other in the
bulletin boards and put each other on ever-larger mailing lists.
For example, if there was one discussion on computers, and another
on music, you likely wouldn't succeed posting a bulletin talking about
both discussions and how computers and music interrelate -- both
censors would reject the entire post because some of the material
was inapplicable to the discussion at hand.
The upshot is that by censoring posts and not providing easy ways
to communicate effectively with lots of people with whom you've
already established contact and common interests, they forced most
anyone who used Prodigy heavily to use mailing lists and email
heavily. Needless to say, these people nearly live on Prodigy, and
suddenly being told their activities were going to cost them in
the neighborhood of $40-50 a month (for example) upset them when
they'd committed so much time and made so many friends on this
"flat-rate service".
3) $.25 per Prodigy email message is absurd. Each message is limited
to four screens of 12 lines x 40 characters per line. No graphics.
No ability to have text pulled in from a file (so forget about
encoding graphics and such unless you are willing to type it all in).
And, unlike USMail, since the recipients aren't necessarily going to
be using the machine every day, delivery is actually less reliable.
Further, unlike USMail, if you move (as in change services), your
mail doesn't get forwarded to you -- for example, if you start using
Internet a lot, Prodigy doesn't forward your mail to it or any other
net. If you're going to charge for email at a price similar to the
US Postal service, you'd better provide for email features roughly
equivalent to USPS matter-mail features, and Prodigy ain't even
close. Internet mail is far better, and I don't think it's worth
even $.05 per send, despite the flaky time-of-delivery, the
insecurity (Prodigy has, I think, inherently more secure email
delivery, by the way), and the lack of ease-of-use offered by USPS
(sort of) and Prodigy.
Despite this, if Prodigy had been up front about the decision, and
not nasty to people who complained about it, I would have stuck with
the service, at least long enough to see if they changed the
rates to a more reasonable, say, $.03 per email beyond 100 per
household per month. If Prodigy had allowed inclusion of graphics,
music, whatever, even if by simplying allowing significantly longer
messages and input/output directly to your own system's files (so
compressed MIDI files, for example, could be sent), I'd have been
willing to pay $.08 per email beyond 100/house/month OR beyond
2K characters in length.
4) When people started complaining and sending email about the upcoming
email charges, Prodigy responded in many cases by summarily canceling
people's accounts. They've gotten into legal trouble over this, too,
I've heard.
5) By raising monthly rates (ok), offering new long-term
commitments at lower rates (ok too), and instituting email charges
"in secret" (not ok, especially when combined with the previous two
things), they showed what might happen in the future:
Say you decide you don't care about email rates, because you and your
family members don't send more than one message per day. But you
like the online encyclopedia. You pay for a month at a time, then
6 months from now, at which point your kids are fairly dependent on
the online encyclopedia, you get an offer -- "we're raising our
monthly rates $2 per month, but commit for 12 months and you'll get
the same low rate you're now getting" -- a reasonable one, and you
sign up.
A month later, you get a bill for $30 -- not including the monthly
rate which you prepaid for 12 months. What's the $30 for? Well,
seems they decided too many people were accessing the online
encyclopedia, so they instituted a new charge -- $1 per access
beyond the first 5 accesses per household. And, unbeknownst to you
and your family, your kids ran up sizable charges by continuing to
use the encyclopedia.
So, you call Prodigy in a huff and ask why you weren't told about it.
"Well, if you had looked under the menu item 'About Prodigy', selected
menu item 'New Features', looked under 'New Graphics for Encyclopedia',
and then selected 'Changes in Pricing', you'd have seen the info."
You claim you didn't know to do this, and the response is "Did you look
at the 'New' screen that keeps you informed as to what's going on?
You should be doing that, and it had an item on these changes." You
go look, and find an entry "Prodigy has improved its On-line Encyclopedia
by adding more graphics in entries -- see 'About Prodigy' for more
info" and realize you wouldn't have looked even if you'd seen that
blurb.
You then are told that the agreement you signed either had fine print
mentioning the new service charge or didn't guarantee a flat rate
throughout the term of the agreement.
And that if you cancel, you might (or might not) be refunded for unused
time, but not for encyclopedia accesses already made.
Based on the email fiasco, I see no reason why Prodigy wouldn't be
capable (and willing) to perpetrate the above scenario.
Yes, the flat rate was great, and some of the features were decent, and,
the main reason I liked it, it was EASY TO USE -- as a hacker, that isn't
personally important, but as many of my friends and family are NOT
hackers, and I didn't have the heart to expect them to use Compu$erve
or others (which I know little about, honestly), that meant a lot to me.
And my wife could use it without asking many questions (her experience
with a little BASIC programming, using and making spreadsheets, and
with some WP programs, helped, of course).
And I have yet to get at all excited about trying Compu$erve. I have a
problem paying connect-time rates on any system where I can't easily
control speed of access (as a ~60-75 wpm typist and a fast reader of
scrolling text, it's important to have a system that can keep up) and
where they charge you MORE for using a higher baud rate!
The relatives of mine who told me they were on Prodigy and convinced me to
get it have stopped doing email on it, and have taken to using GEnie*Star,
and I'm hoping to get some time to try it out -- but it's limited-time-access
at the (more than affordable) flat rate.
I really would have loved staying on Prodigy. It had its problems, but this
email thing was much more than the final straw. It was the tree that fell
and broke the camel's back!
--
James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edubzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (02/11/91)
From: jmc@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) >Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message is less than the price of >a stamp. The chance of timely delivery is similar. And when was the last time you wrote a letter, stuffed it an envelope and put a stamp on it to convey one sentence like the above? Face it folks, there's some large differences between e-mail and postal mail. It lies somewhere between telephony and postal service, closer to telephony in its informality. And flat rates are a big feature in telephony (for non-business users.) There's a very difficult economic question buried in here that's being glossed over. For example, due to the automatic and non-physical nature of the medium (e-mail), the nominal cost of carrying one more message is almost nil (for modern networking, let's skip the historic relic of modem delivery.) Put another way, an idle line-minute can never be recovered. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
U23379@uicvm.uic.edu (Henry Young) (02/12/91)
> This is unfair to Prodigy. Compuserve charges more than $12.50 per hour > for any usable baud rate (if you call 1200 or 2400 usable) and so a mail > message that takes 2 minutes to write costs over 40 cents (compared to > Prodigy's 25 cents after the first 30 messages) to write and also costs > money to read, perhaps around 8 to 10 cents if you deal with it in under > 30 seconds. > > Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message with 30 included in the > price is actually a good deal when compared to past e-mail pricing > trends. Some new trends, including GEnie's unlimited e-mail (but no > mailing lists) for $4.95/month, are better deals, and many here are used > to the unusual deal of usenet/internet mail, but I am a bit surprised at > the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change. >... >! Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message is less than the price of >! a stamp. The chance of timely delivery is similar. oh? I don't recall having to pay for every piece of mail I receive! Besides I could write my note on my pc, upload it, and send it easy enough... I was considering trying prodigy, but if they censure, forget it. If they were a foreign based service, I could see them getting away with it. But This is the US of A! As long as they censure (except the most extremely obnoxious users who abuse it), they should be avoided. Likewise if some jerk were to send me (or anyone) 10000+ notes, the receivers shouldn't be subject to paying for unsolicited mail! I don't use compuserve because they are expensive, but I would rather pay a higher upkeep for fair service.... Hum, They would probably be liable to lawsuits for this, especially if they still charge someone for sending a note that gets "CANNED"! Well, I've said my piece. - Henry Young -
tomr@dbase.A-T.COM (Tom Rombouts) (02/12/91)
In article <7569.27addc02@zeus.unomaha.edu> jsaker@zeus.unomaha.edu (Jamie Saker) writes: >This afternoon, I received an "entertaining" form letter in my U.S. Mailbox >from Fred Larson, Vice President of Prodigy Services Company. >Because of the discussions in various newsgroups about PRODIGY, I >thought I'd post the letter and hear what others have to say about >it. I'd be especially interested in hearing PRODIGY user's and >ex-user's comments. [ incredibly hyped introductory offer letter deleted ] Despite what the letter stated, to "really see what Prodigy is", read some of the recent articles in the computer press about people having their accounts terminated for daring to protest sudden changes in the Prodigy e-mail rules. Compared to USENET, BIX or GEnie, Prodigy is a (somewhat scary) joke. IMHO, Prodigy is to on-line services as McDonald's is to restaurants or USA Today is to newspapers. There have been many times when IBM has been unjustly criticized, but the outcry over their recent Prodigy actions is _not_ one of those times. To get even higher on my soapbox, Prodigy has more in common with The Home Shopping Club than it does with USENET or Compu$Serve. Tom Rombouts Torrance 'Tater tomr@ashtate.A-T.com
karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) (02/12/91)
>In article <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: > Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message with 30 included in the > price is actually a good deal when compared to past e-mail pricing > trends. Some new trends, including GEnie's unlimited e-mail (but no > mailing lists) for $4.95/month, are better deals, and many here are used > to the unusual deal of usenet/internet mail, but I am a bit surprised at > the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change. But it begs the question a bit. They didn't want anyone posting anything but the blandest stuff in the public forums. Use mailing lists, they said. Then the new pricing policy effectively prohibits mailing lists. My biggest impression of Prodigy from my free month was how little of the text of the messages/articles/etc were shown on the screen once the room for the ever-changing-ad-at-the-bottom was taken, plus other areas, plus the big, clunky font they used to display it as. It was around 16X40, as I recall. Oh yeah, in an earlier posting Brad mentioned stuff Prodigy could do that Usenet can't. You can order groceries, for example. I was sold by that one. For only seven dollars they'd pull my order off the shelves, bag it and drive it out to me. But it turned out that you were paying full list price for everything, like Diet Cokes were $2.69 a six pack, instead of the $1.50 typically at Kroger's. And I sure all of my fellow Diet Coke-swilling programmers out there can see that there's just no way you can justify that extra $40-50 a month just to get your Cokes delivered... Oh yeah, one more thing. Another Prodigy special, "Free Film." Scrolling by in the advertising area of your screen, something like "Get two rolls of film for free! Press [QUERY] now!" "Hey great," you say, "free film." You drive through a bunch of steps, then at the end it displays a little invoice: Film $0.00 Shipping and Handling $4.00 Press [NEXT] to complete your order! -- -- uunet!sugar!karl --
nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) (02/12/91)
In article <BURLEY.91Feb11102932@geech.ai.mit.edu> burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) writes: >3) $.25 per Prodigy email message is absurd. Each message is limited It isn't quite so absurd if you know how Prodigy is implemented. My understanding is that it is replicated database with a tree structured hierarchy for passing on the changes. In other words, if I send you a mail message in California, that mail message also gets duplicated at every other site in the country (since you can dial in anywhere). That makes the mail traffic costs *horrendous* for mailing lists. A bad design decision perhaps, but one they have to pay for nonetheless. -- Alfalfa Software, Inc. | Poste: The EMail for Unix nazgul@alfalfa.com | Send Anything... Anywhere 617/646-7703 (voice/fax) | info@alfalfa.com I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.
dougs@baldwin.WV.TEK.COM (Doug Schwartz;685-2700;61-252;641-4115;Baldwin) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >In article <T42Zw2w163w@bluemoon.uucp> cmcurtin@bluemoon.uucp (Matthew Curtin) writes: ... >This is unfair to Prodigy. Compuserve charges more than $12.50 per hour ... >the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change. ... Perhaps it's Prodigy's habit of cancelling the accounts of users who protest their new pricing strategy that has many up in arms. -- Doug Schwartz dougs@orca.wv.tek.com Tektronix Wilsonville, OR
zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) (02/13/91)
In article <91042.101105U23379@uicvm.uic.edu> U23379@uicvm.uic.edu (Henry Young) writes: >oh? I don't recall having to pay for every piece of mail I receive! >Besides I could write my note on my pc, upload it, and send it easy enough... > >I was considering trying prodigy, but if they censure, forget it. If they were ~~~~~~~ >a foreign based service, I could see them getting away with it. But This >is the US of A! As long as they censure (except the most extremely obnoxious ~~~~~~~ >users who abuse it), they should be avoided. Likewise if some jerk were to >send me (or anyone) 10000+ notes, the receivers shouldn't be subject to >paying for unsolicited mail! I don't use compuserve because they are >expensive, but I would rather pay a higher upkeep for fair service.... > > Hum, They would probably be liable to lawsuits for this, especially if they >still charge someone for sending a note that gets "CANNED"! > >Well, I've said my piece. > > - Henry Young - I think when you say censure you mean censor. . . (Merriam Webster 1974 says:) 1cen - sure \'sen-ch@r\ n 1. The act of blaming or condeming sternly 2. an official reprimand. 2censure vb cen - sured : cen - suring to find fault with and criticize as blame worthy. 1cen - sor \'sen-s@r\ n 1: one of two early Roman Magistrates whose duties included taking the census. 2: an official who inspects printed matter or sometimes motion pictures with power to suppress anything objectionable. 2censor vb to subject to censorship -- zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (02/13/91)
The problem is that discussion of whether Prodigy is a good deal or not isn't truly germane to this forum. If you think Prodigy is a bad deal, do not subscribe. It really is as simple as that. That Prodigy heavily controls message content is not censorship! Prodigy considers that a feature -- they spend a great deal of money paying people to do it. It is no more censorship than it is censorship for the letters page editor of the New York Times to select and trim letters for publication on that page. If you consider this a *bad* feature, then don't subscribe. If Prodigy misrepresented the e-mail charge, or misrepresented anything else about its service, that's something germane to the EFF, although misrepresentation of charges is plain ordinary consumer law, and nothing particularly new takes place. There is a spectrum of discussions that can exist online, ranging from alt.sex to completely edited publications. Some people like the complete post-anything world of an alt group, but some people *hate* it. I happen to like things about the whole range, enjoying alt groups, comp groups and moderated groups like comp.risks and rec.humor.funny (:-). It is no sin to try to create anything along this spectrum if you are honest about it. Prodigy has been mostly honest, but they have had their faults in this. When I talk to online world Gurus, I find they have no confusion about what Prodigy was offering. So Prodigy clearly did get the message out about what they are, but also it clearly did not get understood by some users. I am not sure who to blame for that. Prodigy should have the freedom to set up whatever service they wish, and the EFF should work to give them that freedom. Let the users decide if the service is worth anything. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
wcs) (02/13/91)
In article <44013@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: > The two services are not comparable. > You are required to type messages online with Prodigy. > You are limited to 4 "pages" of 40 column text. I've seen Prodigy's stupid small screens, but does your contract with them REQUIRE you to use their terminal emulator? Could some enterprising hacker write an interface that at least gives you a human-readable screen and text upload/download using their protocols, or do they forbid that because you might turn off the advertising? Alternatively, could you use their tools in a Windows window with some sort of cut+paste TSR pretending to be you typing? Has anyone asked them to permit upgrades, even "censored" ones? -- Pray for peace; Bill # Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M-312 Holmdel NJ # "I can see all Southeast Asia, I can see El Salvador, ..."
randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) (02/13/91)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Prodigy Special Offer hits my mailbox... Summary: Expires: References: <1991Feb6.141621.9765@javelin.es.com> <T42Zw2w163w@bluemoon.uucp> <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> <JMC.91Feb10231839@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU> <BZS.91Feb11105310@world.std.com> <1991Feb12.223147.24215@looking.on.ca> Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: St. Dismas Infirmary for the Incurably Informed Keywords: Brad, I respect your experience in this area, but -- you're wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) There, got that out. Part of what we're working out here is exactly what censorship means in the context of cyberspace. And we still don't know. So it's too early to say whether or not Prodigy is "censoring" -- we haven't worked out what censorship means here. From what I have read here, Prodigy appears to have hidden policies in addition to their stated policies. The hidden policies seem to involve control of user message content for Prodigy's commerical goals. If you don't like P's policies, and say so on their net, they cut you off outright, if you use a service in a way P doesn't intend they raise the price, and so on. It's difficult for me to seriously defend these practices; in other electronic media they have been outlawed in the USA. Without those laws, our telephone companies would strictly control what equipment is connected to the public telephone network (Carterfone decision). As with any public business, a commericial BBS has responsibilities to the public; just what those responsibilities are, and if they should be defended by law is not yet clear. It does seem clear to me that controlling message content on is anti-competitive -- after all, Prodigy was stifling criticism of their business practices by denying accounts. Content controls have at least the potential for becoming political censorship as well. One need only look at US television to realize that there is very definite censorship on the part of advertisers. I really have very little patience with this; do we really want our BBS's turned into another vast wasteland? If you want to debate this on the grounds of libertarian property rights theory, I would appreciate it if you pointed followups to talk.politics.theory, where I expect no resolution. Other than that, I hope we get lots of intelligent comments. nd t ou ui R Press T __Randolph Fritz sun!cognito.eng!randolph || randolph@eng.sun.com ou ui Mountain View, California, North America, Earth nd t
russell@spdcc.COM (Tim Russell) (02/13/91)
wcs@cbnewsh.att.com (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs) writes: >I've seen Prodigy's stupid small screens, but does your contract >with them REQUIRE you to use their terminal emulator? > >Could some enterprising hacker write an interface that at least >gives you a human-readable screen and text upload/download >using their protocols, or do they forbid that because you might turn >off the advertising? It's been done. Look in <MSDOS.PRODIGY> on Simtel. It's called PRODHP13.ZIP, and makes Prodigy much more bearable to work with. It allows upload of messages, a signature file, "printing" to a disk file, gets rid of all those formfeeds in the printing, etc. Evidently Prodigy doesn't mind it, because they allow discussion about it on the "About Prodigy" board. I was really surprised at that, since the software allows the user to print to a file, thus circumventing their selective enabling of printing. -- ____ \TR/ Tim Russell \/ russell@ursa-major.spdcc.com
pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) (02/13/91)
Just a short note to all those debating Prodigy, and a few other topics: As I assume Prodigy is just a U.S. based net, why does the rest of the world have to sift through it? May I ask people to *not* just use distribution: world as the default, but think whether anyone outside the U.S. needs to carry all this stuff, and set distribution to 'us'? This occurs quite often with country-specific messages. Regards, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Brooks | Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au School of Physics | Uni. of N.S.W. | If you have trouble sleeping, try lying on the end of
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb12.030202.9781@sugar.hackercorp.com> karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) writes: > >Oh yeah, in an earlier posting Brad mentioned stuff Prodigy could do that >Usenet can't. You can order groceries, for example. I was sold by that >one. For only seven dollars they'd pull my order off the shelves, bag it >and drive it out to me. But it turned out that you were paying full list >price for everything, And, just to tie in a thread from misc.consumers, just think of all the information about your buying habits Prodigy is collecting, storing, and then selling to the highest bidder. And to think, they charge you a PREMIUM to do so! From Prodigy's perspective, "What a Bargain!" -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (02/14/91)
In article <7909@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) writes: >Part of what we're working out here is exactly what censorship means >in the context of cyberspace. And we still don't know. So it's too >early to say whether or not Prodigy is "censoring" -- we haven't >worked out what censorship means here. Nor will we ever, since it's not really an issue here. It depends on your definition of censorship. By mine, it is impossible for Prodigy practice censorship, since that is the province of the government or organized crime. By your definition, it is censorship if somebody refuses to let you use their property to express your opinions. The two definitions will have trouble meeting. >From what I have read here, Prodigy appears to have hidden policies in >addition to their stated policies. Hidden only in the sense that they don't advertise them. Everybody involved in the online biz is pretty aware of what they are. >It's difficult for me to seriously defend these practices; in other >electronic media they have been outlawed in the USA. Without those >laws, our telephone companies would strictly control what equipment is >connected to the public telephone network (Carterfone decision). As Prodigy is not a government approved monopoly, nor indeed a monopoly of any kind. At the rate it is losing money, (revenues estimate $55 million, expenses well over $100 million) it may not be anything in the near future. >with any public business, a commericial BBS has responsibilities to >the public; just what those responsibilities are, and if they should >be defended by law is not yet clear. That is an interesting issue. But Prodigy is not trying to be a BBS. That's the source of all this problem. I guess I sympathise with them because in a sense every Prodigy discussion area is like rec.humor.funny. I edit that newsgroup and have defined its editorial policy. And I have refused, rather adamantly in the past as some of you know, to allow anybody else to dictate that editorial policy to me. Likewise Prodigy, which is not trying to be a BBS, has an editorial policy, and it's entirely up to their management what that should be. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb11.061828.20234@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: > >Prodigy's 25 cents after the first 30 messages) to write and also costs >money to read, perhaps around 8 to 10 cents if you deal with it in under >30 seconds. 30 seconds? Give me a break. It takes at least two minutes to get past all the damn advertisements to get to mail. >Face it folks, 25 cents per e-mail message with 30 included in the >price is actually a good deal when compared to past e-mail pricing >trends. Some new trends, including GEnie's unlimited e-mail (but no >mailing lists) for $4.95/month, are better deals, and many here are used >to the unusual deal of usenet/internet mail, but I am a bit surprised at >the bad press Prodigy's gotten on this price change. You mean you like Prodigy? I feel truly sorry for you. I'd hate to pay all that money for advertisements...hence I don't. You are right. Genie is an *EXCELLENT* deal. -- John M. Adams --***-- Professional Student /// Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga BBS, Paragon 2.085 \\V// Makes it Possible Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb13.204146.20712@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >M> >Organization: Looking Glass Software Ltd. >Lines: 44 > >In article <7909@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) writes: >>Part of what we're working out here is exactly what censorship means >>in the context of cyberspace. And we still don't know. > >Nor will we ever, since it's not really an issue here. It depends on >your definition of censorship. By mine, it is impossible for Prodigy >practice censorship, since that is the province of the government or >organized crime. By your definition, it is censorship if somebody refuses >to let you use their property to express your opinions. The two definitions >will have trouble meeting. That's an interesting definition you have there. Tell me, what do you call the team of people whose job it is to bleep out the dirty words on Johnny Carson? NBC refers to them as "censors" - what do you call them? Or are you saying that NBC is organized crime? ;-) -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) (02/19/91)
In article <1991Feb12.230101.17787@cbnewsh.att.com> wcs@cbnewsh.att.com (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs) writes: >In article <44013@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: >> The two services are not comparable. >> You are required to type messages online with Prodigy. >> You are limited to 4 "pages" of 40 column text. > >I've seen Prodigy's stupid small screens, but does your contract >with them REQUIRE you to use their terminal emulator? > >Could some enterprising hacker write an interface that at least >gives you a human-readable screen and text upload/download >using their protocols, or do they forbid that because you might turn >off the advertising? >Alternatively, could you use their tools in a Windows window >with some sort of cut+paste TSR pretending to be you typing? > >Has anyone asked them to permit upgrades, even "censored" ones? I doubt it. They probably have checks that would be nearly impossible to duplicate, but it can be tried. . .(But they may revoke your subscription if you do that. . .oh. no.) -- zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM