phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) (10/30/88)
In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. To me it is neither. Not wanting to start an argument.....just had to get it off my chest. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu>
chguest@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov.arpa (Charles Guest RCE) (10/31/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu > >..... I just wanted to >say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. >Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. To me it is >neither. > >Not wanting to start an argument.....just had to get it off my chest. > > William LeFebvre > Department of Computer Science > Rice University > <phil@Rice.edu> I also find Mr. Spencer's .signature offensive......HOWEVER Mr. Spencer writes some very good articles and has answered some poster's questions quite competantly. I wish that he would lay off on his nasty NASA comm- ents, but I would rather have to muddle through his .signature than loose his input into this group. My long and offensive .signature follows..... ======================================================================== = Having said that Charles began to feel better and climbed off his = = soapbox... = ************************************************************************ * DISCLAIMER: The above article is my opinion *ONLY*, true articulable * * facts had absolutely no bearing on the statements made, * * and therefore certainly do not represent the body of * * anyone's official opinion !! (Not even mine :-) * ************************************************************************
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (10/31/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu>, phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: > In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: > >The dream *IS* alive... but not at NASA. > I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to > say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. I take offense at your taking offense. You've complained before. We know you have a much more positive view of NASA than Henry. Since you apparently work or have other connections there this is a good thing. But the proper response is not to complain... it's to give those of us who are getting more than a little tired of NASA's tendency to throw away working systems something to be hopeful about. > Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. To me it is > neither. It's sad, not funny. And if it's not true, how about some good dope? -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: I accept full responsibility for my own typos.
phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) (11/01/88)
In article <2934@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu>, phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >> In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >> >The dream *IS* alive... but not at NASA. > >>...I still take offense at Henry's signature. > >I take offense at your taking offense. And I take offense at your taking offense at my taking offense! (Good Lord! :-) >You've complained before. And I'll do it again if I want to, so there! :-) >We know you have a much more positive view of NASA than Henry. Yes, because I know people there. And I know that they are committed to a flourishing space program. >But the proper response is not to complain... And Henry's blanket statement ridiculing the entirety of NASA is "proper"? >it's to give those of us who are getting more than a little tired of >NASA's tendency to throw away working systems something >to be hopeful about. Perhaps if the dolts up in Washington would stop playing roulette with NASAs future, NASA could get something done. Look people: I'm not saying that NASA is flawless. Far from it. I hear about so many internal problems at JSC that they make my head spin (and no I'm not going to repeat any of them....it wouldn't be "proper"). I am simply offended at the "hasty generalization" that Mr. Spencer made. Any organization of non-trivial size will have problems. Any government organization will have more than it's share of problems (this seems to be a general rule of thumb). But saying, in effect, that no one at NASA cares is grossly unfair. >It's sad, not funny. And if it's not true, how about some good dope? Many people at JSC worked very hard to get Discovery up in orbit in again. And it happened. To me, that's "good dope". And they are on track to get the next one up pretty much on schedule (end of November). They have also come up with a way to make sure that the "unexpected upper air currents" problem (the one that threatened to keep Discovery on the ground) won't hold them back in the future. And it only took them about a month! The revamped SRB's did their job. Inspection showed no problems. And just to show how difficult this shuttle business really is, the first launch of Buran had to be delayed because of technical problems. This is not "good dope" but it is instructive. I said I didn't want to start an argument.......sigh. Henry stated his opinion. I stated mine. I would like to leave it at that, but I guess that some people out there will make me defend my opinion. So be it. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu>
wooding@daisy.UUCP (Mike Wooding) (11/01/88)
Charles Guest writes: < In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: < >>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology < >>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu < >..... I just wanted to < >say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. < >Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. To me it is < >neither. < I also find Mr. Spencer's .signature offensive......HOWEVER Mr. Spencer < writes some very good articles and has answered some poster's questions < quite competantly. I wish that he would lay off on his nasty NASA comm- < ents, but I would rather have to muddle through his .signature than < loose his input into this group. Just to dispel the notion of any unanimous consensus, I neither take offense, nor necessarily even agree with Mr.Spencer's signature. I greatly value his inputs, and take the signature to be an indication of his feelings. Don't take it too seriously: NASA isn't a religion. m wooding
leem@jplpro.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) (11/01/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: |In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: |>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology |>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu | |I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to |say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. | | | William LeFebvre I too, take some offense at that signature. While JPL is not a NASA center, it is still a NASA organization and I can tell you that it is emphatically NOT true. Lee -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- |Lee F. Mellinger Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA| |4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/393-0516 FTS 977-0516 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| |UUCP: {ames!cit-vax,psivax}!elroy!jpl-devvax!jplpro!leem | |ARPA: jplpro!leem!@cit-vax.ARPA -or- leem@jplpro.JPL.NASA.GOV | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
steve@eos.UUCP (Steve Philipson) (11/01/88)
In article <3437@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> leem@jplpro.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) writes: >In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >|In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >|>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >|>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu >| >|I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to >|say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. > >I too, take some offense at that signature. While JPL is not a NASA >center, it is still a NASA organization and I can tell you that it is >emphatically NOT true. I might as well add my 2 nanocents worth. I worked at JPL for five years and have been at NASA/Ames for over a year. Most of us at NASA centers believe in and care about the space program very strongly. We typically work at these centers for considerably less money than we could get elsewhere; these are desirable jobs 'cause the work is meaningful, and people are willing to get paid less to be allowed to do it. Most of us don't have any say in how money is allocated and what projects are funded. That comes from the upper level administrators, Congress, and the president. Leadership from those leaders (particularly from the office of the president) has been conspicuously poor. So, we do our best with what we're given, and we try to get them to commit more. Henry's sig indicates a frustration with the space program that we all feel, but it is hurtful to those of us who are working with and for NASA. The problem is not that NASA people are unmotivated, but that there is insufficient support from our government. Henry, you're free to use any sig you want. Be aware though that such lines are one more blow to those of us who are committing our lives to the dream and the goals that you and we share. It is particularly painful for it to be coming from someone as knowledgeable and capable as you. -- Steve (the certified flying fanatic) steve@aurora.arc.nasa.gov
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (11/01/88)
How about some good dope on heavy lift boosters, external tanks, advanced shuttle replacements, inter-orbit transfer vehicles, man-rated expendables, etc., etc., etc... -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: I accept full responsibility for my own typos.
eugene@eos.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (11/01/88)
Let's see, Henry has gotten Phil, Lee, and Steve and a host of others to
comment on this. All have made some emotional points. I think I
would like to add an observation having visited most of the Centers
(KSC shortly).
Henry has a tiny grain of truth in this signature commentary. When you
visit each of the Centers, you get a slightly different picture
of the make up of the Agency. To this day, I am still learning myself,
for instance, I've learn a few more things about early NASA computer
funding from this book on Xerox (and the Alto).
NASA was pieced together from parts of vastly different Agencies:
the NACA, ARPA, parts of the NSF, USAF, etc. Each had their own perspective,
their own motivations: space exploration (manned and unmanned [hum]),
defense systems, aeronautics, etc. The people at Ames-Dryden have a much
different view of NASA that the Ames management up in the Bay Area,
the same goes for JPL. It was leaving NASA Lewis one day which struck me:
there was this sign which said that the work we are doing is "for all
mankind." I can think of parts of NASA who would disagree with that.
I don't think I would ever see a sign like that working for Livermore,
LANL, Sandia, AFWL, IBM, and who knows who else.
We still show the crazy-quilt of the Agencies from which we were assembled.
So the answer is both yes and no. So what's new?
Another gross generalization from
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@aurora.arc.nasa.gov
resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers:
"Mailers?! HA!", "If my mail does not reach you, please accept my apology."
{uunet,hplabs,ncar,decwrl,allegra,tektronix}!ames!aurora!eugene
"Send mail, avoid follow-ups. If enough, I'll summarize."tim@attdso.ATT.COM (Tim J Ihde) (11/02/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu > >I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to >say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. OK . . . but one thing you must admit. Over the last year, Henry has gotten more comments with his various two line .signatures than some people have recieved with MUCH longer ones! I think there must be a message in there somewhere . . . -- Tim J Ihde UUCP: att!attdso!tim (201) 898-6687 INTERNET: tim@attdso.att.com "Blimey - this redistribution of wealth is more complicated than I'd thought!" - Dennis Moore and various Presidents
cc1@valhalla.cs.ucla.edu (R...for Rabbit) (11/02/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: ^In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: ^>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology ^>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ^ ^I know this group has been through this before... Yes, it has been through this before, and that was one time too many. ^....but I just wanted to ^say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. Wow, now it's on the record. We're all thrilled. ^Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. So what if he does? It's his .sig. ^To me it is neither. That's why it's not your .sig. ^Not wanting to start an argument.....just had to get it off my chest. It seems to me that you ARE trying to start an argument. It seems like you want to publicly put your opinion all over the world by posting such a message. Why? It isn't because any of us really care about your opinion or need to know. Rather, it seems like you are trying to get people on "your side" and "against" Mr. Spencer. To me, this seems like a personal attack in disguise, and personal attacks are NOT tolerated on the USENET. Why does Henry's .sig bother you that much? Why don't you just consider it to be an incorrect opinion, based on ignorance on Henry's part? (*) Why do you have to try to get this off your chest? (* note: this would be from the point of view of someone with Mr. LeFebvre's opinions, not necessarily mine) Are we now censoring all .sig quotes, to make sure that they contain policially correct statements? I don't see any quotes in your .sig, William. Should we be requiring everyone to have positive quotes about NASA in their .sig? Or are we just not allowing anyone to say bad things about them? What's wrong with Henry having and stating his opinion, no mattter if it is correct or incorrect? ^ William LeFebvre I welcome any comments on this, but they probably should be moved to alt.flame, unless they are discussing the actual status of NASA's "dream", which is appropriate for this newsgroup. A personal attack on Mr. Spencer is NOT appropriate. --R for Rabbit God *IS* alive... | Ken Bartlett at U of California Los Angeles but not at HASA. |ucbvax!ucla-cs!cc1 cc1@cs.ucla.edu izzy947@oac.ucla.edu
phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) (11/02/88)
In article <17435@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> cc1@cs.ucla.edu (R...for Rabbit) writes: >In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >^In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >^>The dream *IS* alive... >^>but not at NASA. >... >^Not wanting to start an argument.....just had to get it off my chest. > >It seems to me that you ARE trying to start an argument. It seems like >you want to publicly put your opinion all over the world by posting such >a message. I see no difference between my desire to place my opinion all over the world and Henry's desire to place his. >...Rather, it seems like you are trying to get >people on "your side" and "against" Mr. Spencer. To me, this seems like >a personal attack in disguise, and personal attacks are NOT tolerated >on the USENET. That's stretching it a bit, I think. >Are we now censoring all .sig quotes, to make sure that they contain >policially correct statements? No. I never called for any censorship. I was merely expressing my opinion and feelings. Is that wrong? Or perhaps YOU are trying to censor ME??? ;-) >I don't see any quotes in your .sig, William. You will now!!! >What's wrong with Henry having and stating his >opinion, no mattter if it is correct or incorrect? Nothing. What's wrong with me stating mine? I just wanted him and others to be aware that I was hurt. Everything else I have to say to this individual will be done via mail. I felt that my views should be clarified so that others reading this forum did not get the wrong impression. The dream *IS* alive... William LeFebvre ESPECIALLY at NASA! Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu>
tneff@dasys1.UUCP (Tom Neff) (11/02/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >>The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >>but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu > >I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to >say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. >Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. To me it is >neither. Thanks for sharing that with us. It doesn't mean Henry's wrong, or that voicing his opinion is inappropriate. There are two ways you can interpret his statement. One is that NASA employees don't care about the future of space exploration. If you really think that's what Henry means, I have some Florida swamp land you might care to look over. :-) The other interpretation is that the *effective advancement* of the dream does not inhere in what NASA is doing, regardless of the personal beliefs of the folks who fill out the time cards there. I will bet you anything that's the interpretation Henry had in mind, and if I am right he may very well have a point. Perhaps he could have couched the point in more innocuous easy-to-chew language, but that's a point of personal style. For all our disagreements, I wouldn't have him any other way. :-) >Not wanting to start an argument.....just had to get it off my chest. Famous Last Words!
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (11/03/88)
In article <2074@kalliope.rice.edu> phil@Rice.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: >Perhaps he thinks it's funny or perhaps he thinks it's true. To me it is >neither. It's not funny, it's sad. As for truth, I got mail from a NASA employee (not Eugene) agreeing with me. -- The Earth is our mother. | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology Our nine months are up. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
johnson@ncrcce.StPaul.NCR.COM (Wayne D. T. Johnson) (11/03/88)
In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu In article <610@attdso.ATT.COM> tim@attdso.att.com (Tim J Ihde) writes: > >I know this group has been through this before.......but I just wanted to >say, for the record, that I still take offense at Henry's signature. > >Over the last year, Henry has gotten more comments with his various two line >.signatures than some people have recieved with MUCH longer ones! > >I think there must be a message in there somewhere . . . Agreed! Henry has every right to make a statment for or against anything he wishes, as long as it does not fall into the areas of slander, goverment secretes, or yelling FIRE in a crowded theater when there is no fire. William also has a right to make a statment conserning his opinion of Henry's statment. And, of course, I have every right to make a statment about William's opinion of Henry's statment... As far as my statment, I belive that much of what is attributed to NASA's management could easily be caused by their bosses, the congress. If you had to scrap and restart projects, somtimes on a monthly basis, everytime another vote is taken in congress, you might have a public image problem too. Ask anyone in an R&D position what its like to get shuffeled from project to project whenever the winds of management change. -- Wayne Johnson (Voice) 612-638-7665 NCR Comten, Inc. (E-MAIL) W.Johnson@StPaul.NCR.COM or Roseville MN 55113 johnson@c10sd1.StPaul.NCR.COM These opinions (or spelling) do not necessarily reflect those of NCR Comten.
tif@cpe.UUCP (11/03/88)
In article <1988Oct28.180827.25578@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >The dream *IS* alive... | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >but not at NASA. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu I suppose that it is remotely possible that Henry is trying to motivate someone by lightly offending them ... however, I too would rather see a slam of OS/2 than of NASA. Paul Chamberlain Computer Product Engineering, Tandy Corp. bellcore!motown!sys1!cpe!tif
hhd0@bunny.UUCP (Horace Dediu) (11/04/88)
In article <1988Nov2.175724.481@utzoo.uucp>, henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: > The Earth is our mother. | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology > Our nine months are up. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu All right, maybe the signature flammage will stop now. Thanks for changing it.
kazim@Apple.COM (Alex Kazim) (11/05/88)
The Dream Is Alive, but not at NASA... Spencer mau have a point. I was at the Johnson Space Ctr in Houston looking at the shuttle computer facilities, and quite frankly, I was flabbergasted at the "stone age" NASA made their astronauts use. The portable computer (SPoC) is a modified GRID whose technology is only four years old. The software running on it was quite sophisticated. But this is considered cutting edge there! The department that got the machines on the shuttle was a non-critical research arm with no risk-management, but they still had to fight several political battles just to get it up. When I told them I could put a box on their desk that was 5 times as powerful and a fifth the cost, they stared at me. "You can do that? Wow, that would be neat, but I don't think the management would go for it." I have to hand it to the engineers there. They've done some great things with stone axes and animal bones. But enough is enough. It's time NASA took some direction in innovation. The Dream is Alive! It's just buried under Red Tape. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This soapbox has been brought to you by: Alex Kazim, Apple Computer My opinions, but Apple pays me anyway ------------------------------------------------------------------------
sl148033@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (Kevin_Clendenien) (11/05/88)
In article <6233@bunny.UUCP> hhd0@bunny.UUCP (Horace Dediu) writes: >In article <1988Nov2.175724.481@utzoo.uucp>, henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >> The Earth is our mother. | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >> Our nine months are up. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu > > All right, maybe the signature flammage will stop now. > Thanks for changing it. I disagree with whether Henry's original signature stated fact, or not, but I think he has every right to use it, if he wishes. So, just because Henry has shown great class, by using a different signature this time, I hope no one considers this as a confirmation from Henry that his original signature was in any way out of line with this electronic forum. So, if the mood strikes Henry to use his old signature again, please just accept it. Henry is an intelligent person, and I think his most recent signature shows that he is aware of other netlanders feelings. So let's reciprocate, and allow Henry to use what ever signature his wishes, without fear of flaming. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes the lack of a signature -Kevin Clendenien can say so much more than some sl148033@silver.UUCP cute fashionable signature. --------------------------------------------------------------------------
senator@csuchico.EDU (Mark Haase) (11/05/88)
In reference to the Mr. Spenser's signature: Way to go Mr. LeFebvre, NASA has taking enough brow beating fro awhile. However, freedom of speech is our way of communicating to our government. D. Mark Haase (916) 895-0995 ...csun!csuc!senator