andy@cayuga.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) (11/09/88)
In article <6233@bunny.UUCP> hhd0@bunny.UUCP (Horace Dediu) writes: >[YA HS article header] >> The Earth is our mother. | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >> Our nine months are up. |uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu > All right, maybe the signature flammage will stop now. > Thanks for changing it. It doesn't work that way. HS changes signature quotes regularly. It seems that when people flame about his then current quote, he keeps it for a bit longer than usual (He's admitted that he's done this on at least one occasion.); I don't know what he does when people praise the quote. So, if you don't like one of his quotes, don't say anything and it will change. So, will shuttle development be affected by the (now) predicted 50% cost overruns in the Superconducting Super Collider? If Space is science, then I think it's going to be pushed out by other big science that doesn't kill people in the course of normal events. (And a manned space will kill people; even elevators do.) -andy UUCP: {arpa gateways, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!polya.stanford.edu!andy ARPA: andy@polya.stanford.edu (415) 329-1718/723-3088 home/cubicle
smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) (11/11/88)
>It doesn't work that way. HS changes signature quotes regularly. It >seems that when people flame about his then current quote, he keeps it >for a bit longer than usual (He's admitted that he's done this on at >least one occasion.); I don't know what he does when people praise the >quote. So, if you don't like one of his quotes, don't say anything >and it will change. My query is when will we (USA) be given the power to levy taxes in Canada? I mean, after all, if Canadians are so anxious to tell us how to spend our taxes, are they equally anxious to pay them? ----------------------------------- No taxation without representation; no representation without taxation. -- -- s m ryan +------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ |`I had a boyfriend from Canada, but |`There is nobody who take the | |I had to give him up--you lose so |responsibility and solve this problem for| |much in the exchange rate.' -C Snow |us. We have to do it ourselves.' -G Dyer| +------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
greg@proxftl.UUCP (Gregory N. Hullender) (11/13/88)
In article <1844@garth.UUCP> smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes: >My query is when will we (USA) be given the power to levy taxes in Canada? >I mean, after all, if Canadians are so anxious to tell us how to spend our >taxes, are they equally anxious to pay them? I was shopping at Harrods in London a couple of years ago (only a few months after the Challenger explosion), and I struck up a conversation with a nice fellow from Australia. In the course of the conversation, we talked a bit about the Space Shuttle and the recent disaster, and he said somthing I'll never forget. He said, "It was terrible, and just when we were finally starting to get somewhere too." My first thought was, "where do you get this 'we' stuff?" but on reflection, I decided I rather liked it. I think we should encourage it. In other words, the Canadians are offering advice because they feel like they're a part of the adventure too, and that's not a bad thing. -- Greg Hullender uflorida!novavax!proxftl!greg 3511 NE 22nd Ave / Fort Lauderdale, FL 33308 My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer.
scott@attcan.UUCP (Scott MacQuarrie) (11/13/88)
In article <1844@garth.UUCP>, smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes: > My query is when will we (USA) be given the power to levy taxes in Canada? > I mean, after all, if Canadians are so anxious to tell us how to spend our > taxes, are they equally anxious to pay them? > P*ss off! Most of us are simply upset to watch a great organization such as NASA become a third-rate government department through no fault of the people who are really trying to make the space program work. Maybe if enough people start screaming they'll move some management into NASA that will allow the administration to accomplish what it set out to do. As to why Canadians have a right to be upset over the decline of NASA. Who do you think built the ARM for the Shuttle? Who do you think launched the first communication sat? (USSR - First Sat. , Canada - First Communication Sat. USA - First Commercial Communication Sat.). Your taxation system has nothing to do with the fact that the US Space program (and as a result the Canadian Space Program) is quickly becoming an international joke. Scott MacQuarrie AT&T Canada Inc. uunet!attcan!scott p.s. My opinions are my own. p.p.s. Who says Canadians aren't aggressive :-)
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (11/13/88)
In article <1844@garth.UUCP> smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes: >My query is when will we (USA) be given the power to levy taxes in Canada? >I mean, after all, if Canadians are so anxious to tell us how to spend our >taxes, are they equally anxious to pay them? Surely you jest. Are you willing to pay Canadian taxes in return for all the input your country has into our economic policy, foreign policy, etc.? At least my comments don't come with an implicit "or else" attached! I won't even mention the fines you'd be paying for all this acid rain... -- Sendmail is a bug, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology not a feature. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) (11/13/88)
My, my, my.
Aren't we just so full of `I'm so international' posturings.
Mayhaps one day all the borders will dissappear and we will live under a
single unitary government.
'Tain't so today.
And I hope it never comes to that extreme. Do I really care about the Brawley
case? Does New York care about the periphial canal? Our system has a nice
property of making the decision makers most responsible to the people who are
most affected by their decisions rather than anybody who wanders by and will
not have live with the consequences of a decision.
Of course, before I get so many hundreds of nasty little notes about how this
doesn't have anything do with either shuttle program, mayhaps we should
remember how they are being financed. In American politics, money is the grease
that moves all wheels.
- If an invited guest said my sister was ugly, I would consider it uncommonly
rude. Whether my sister would make the elephant man look handsome is beside
the point. Once upon time, it was considerred common courtesy for a guest
not to insult the host. And vice versa, the host was not suppose to insult
the guest.
- Does Canada still have an Official Secrets Act? I don't keep track of these
things. I do think it is rather tacky for any country which does have such
legislation to critise another which does protect freedom of speech, at
least in principle.
- Should foreign citizens living outside the US be permitted to critise
our internal affairs? Of course, everybody knows how I go around just
censorring everybody. And the network is just chockful of Americans saying
all sorts of nasty things about Canada and the free trade pact and all those
questions about what exactly is a subsidy.
It is quite one thing offer an insight, a completely different view, of
our affairs, and constructive criticism is always welcomed. US permits,
and invites, an unusual amount of foreign comment on our affairs. Given our
current status in the world, which I am fully aware is transistory, I can
understand the concern of others. However many of the comments are of the
level of taunts and snide or slanderous remarks. It is usually just a low
noise level which we have learned to tolerate, but even low level noise is
tiresome and can cause anger and violence.
- Some foreign nationals have suggested if I don't like their country
interfering in mine, then I shouldn't like my country interfering in yet
others. A logical conclusion which is invariably followed by an illogical
conclusion that I like interfering in other countries's internal affairs.
I'd rather you not tell me what I think. You could try asking.
- But Canada made the shuttle arm. That, of course, gives Canadians total
control of the shuttles. Get real. How much have we sold or donated to
Canada? Now, if DoC negotiated an agreement or treaty in exchange for the
shuttle arms, and if we are violating such an agreement, then that is an
international affair.
- Some Canadians live in this country and have taxes levied against them.
Obviously that is so unfair. I mean, after all, our soldiers just snuck
right over the border and kidnapped all those poor people and are now
forcing them to work at higher wages than they could earn at home. Of
course, we all know about the Canadian Exclusion Acts which prevent
them from being naturalised. Our Bill of Rights applies to everybody
within our borders, regardless of citizenship. How often does that occur?
In fact, how many countries even have a Bill of Rights?
- Given our relative status, Canada feels that is in danger of being swamped
by our culture. I understand. Still, if they want our sympathy, they should
be sympathetic to our fears.
- Money is very important. I'd like to say flowerly things about providing
for all and making everyone happy, but the reality is our resources are
finite. So who should decide to spend that money? Oh, I can just hear all
those internationalists mutterring. However, the US is a democracy, more
or less, and we are rather stuck on the idea that we who pay get to decide
what it is used for.
- Now, more to the point, what direct action can Canadians take if they don't
like Nasa? (besides using bumper stickers)
- Move to the US, establish residency, naturalise, register, and vote or
run for office.
- Have their government negotiate with our government to give their
country some voice in how Nasa is run. This will probably require
some kind of payment.
- Start their own damn shuttle program.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
begin disclaimers
{note: standard disclaimer which shows the author is sympathetic.}
Hey! Some of my best geese are Canadians.
{note: standard disclaimer which shows the author is politically correct.}
Hey! I voted the straight Neoluddite ticket.
end disclaimers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-- s m ryan
----------------------------------------
Of old was the age when Ymir lived;
sea nor cool waves nor sand there were;
Unhewn was earth or heaven above,
but a yawning gap and yard was barren.gregg@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Wonderly) (11/14/88)
From article <3473@vpk4.UUCP>, by scott@attcan.UUCP (Scott MacQuarrie): > In article <1844@garth.UUCP>, smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes: >> My query is when will we (USA) be given the power to levy taxes in Canada? >> I mean, after all, if Canadians are so anxious to tell us how to spend our >> taxes, are they equally anxious to pay them? I am embarrased to say that I live with people with this mind set... > P*ss off! Most of us are simply upset to watch a great organization such as > NASA become a third-rate government department through no fault of the people > who are really trying to make the space program work. Maybe if enough people > start screaming they'll move some management into NASA that will allow the > administration to accomplish what it set out to do. Think about it this way... Your parents are non-american and you are born in another country. You are very interested in space but your country is small and sparsely populated. I.e. there is not enough capital to fund a space program... What do you do? Well, you could change countries, but then you will not be with your family and friends any longer. Or you can take a different approach and participate from the outside, trying to offer constructive criticism (what henry appears to be trying to do). I don't believe that you people could be so naive as to believe that just because someone was born in a particular region of this planet that all of their interests are centered there. How many of you are interested in other countries who are experiencing problems that are either economical or political. If you can't accept the people of this world as THE HUMAN RACE but as these guys and those guys, you are very shallow. The people and the races of this world will probably be here at least as long as you are and most likely much longer. No matter how hard you try to push others by the way because they are not like you (some of you people must think you are the only ones here), they are not going to leave. If we ever expect to get anywhere in space we must stop the damn arms race. To do that we must learn to live and work together in PEACE. All of this stupid, childish and down right primeval name calling is not becomming of educated people. CAN WE PLEASE STOP THIS CRAP!!!! -- It isn't the DREAM that NASA's missing... DOMAIN: gregg@ihlpb.att.com It's a direction! UUCP: att!ihlpb!gregg
tneff@dasys1.UUCP (Tom Neff) (11/15/88)
I wonder whether Steve Ryan's *stupid* *idiotic* flame arrived at Eugene Miya's machine early enough that he'll 'c' right past it. I hope so. :-) While some criticism of hypocritical European sniping is occasionally in order, blaming Canada for *anything* is mindless jingoism. They are involved, their opinions are relevant and definitely (in Henry's case) of interest. I don't know what special animus motivates our friend from Palo Alto, but it's out of place in this newsgroup. -- Tom Neff UUCP: ...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tneff "None of your toys CIS: 76556,2536 MCI: TNEFF will function..." GEnie: TOMNEFF BIX: t.neff (no kidding)
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (11/15/88)
In article <1879@garth.UUCP> smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes: >My, my, my. [110 lines of verbiage deleted] I think that's a new record for "how much fuss can one two-line signature cause". :-) -- Sendmail is a bug, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology not a feature. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
kazim@Apple.COM (Alex Kazim) (11/15/88)
The suugestion that Canada ought to start it's own "damned" space program: Having lived in Canada for six years I can give some input. Canada tried to build a fighter, the Avro Arrow. It really was ahead of its time, but it got shut down by Deifenbaker so he could place Bomarc missiles in the Arctic to prevent against the Soviet Menace. The US, which sold the Bomarcs to Canada, also make Canada sign an agreement where Canada couldn't build fighter aircraft until 1999. It's been awhile, so I'm sure my details are a little rusty. Maybe Spencer could help me out. So is it the US's fault for stuffing the treaty down the PM's throat the same way it did the Columbia River Treaty, or the Auto Pact? I think it was really stupid for the PM to sign that agreement; but then again he was under a lot of pressure, from the Soviets and the Americans. I think Canada's current role in NASA is smart from an economic and political standpoint. But everyone has the right to criticize NASA, especially when it's warranted. Or is freedom of speech a solely Citizen of America thing? People criticize because they care. And the sooner this jingoistic, what's mine is mine and you can die attitude ends, the better. --------------------------------------------------------------- Alex Kazim, Apple Computer These are my opinions, but I bet a few people here would back me up. ----------------------------------------------------------------