jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) (03/14/91)
Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles enable a smaller structure because of its ability to handle heat soooooooo well. I have no idea what would go into building it, but with the devistation that these fires are to doing to our environment, some experimenting with all possiblities seems to the thing to do! Jim (jimh@welchlab.welch.jhu.edu)
stan@Dixie.Com (Stan Brown) (03/17/91)
jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) writes: >Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames >of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the >interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine >it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles >enable a smaller structure because of its ability to handle heat soooooooo BRRRR Wrong. As I recall the *lowest* pressure I have heard quoted for *any* well in the Middle East ias about 1000PSI, that would make building your dome real trick. To say notyhing of working that close to the fires which are *HOT*. I remeber a discussion of them melting the sand around them, and take my word for it tat's hot! -- Stan Brown P. c. Design 404-363-2303 Ataant Ga. (emory|gatech|uunet) rsiatl!sdba!stan "vi forever"
gardner@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Gardner) (03/18/91)
stan@Dixie.Com (Stan Brown) writes: >jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) writes: >>Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames >>of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the >>interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine >>it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles Rather than try to smother, try to separate the "fire" from the "fuel". Build a "Y" section of pipe to be lowered over the well head. Each of the top arms fo the Y would have nozzles and valves. When it is lowered over the head, only one would be open. The unit would have to be large enough and heavy enough to form a reasonable seal against the sand. The flame front should move up to the top of the open arm of the Y as the unit hits the sand. Once it's in place, the hot nozzle would be closed as the cold one opened. The distance between the nozzles would have to be sufficient to keep one from igniting the other as it goes out. As soon as things are cool it could be removed and repairs begun. mgg
pdbain@bwdls58.bnr.ca (Peter Bain) (03/19/91)
In article <1991Mar14.151130.3822@welch.jhu.edu> jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) writes: >Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames >of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the >interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine >it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles >enable a smaller structure because of its ability to handle heat soooooooo >well. Nice idea, but it turns out that extinguishing an oil-well fire is easy: the people who do this for a living may extinguish a fire several times in one day. The way they do it is (1) detonate some explosive (the old way) or (2) pump fire-extinguisher powder (basically baking soda) into the plume at the rate of several hundred pounds per SECOND (whoosh!). They often re-light it intentionally to reduce the explosion hazard. You have missed the point somewhat, though. The tricky part about oil well fires is not the fire itself, it's actually capping the well. The firefighters need to dig away until they find undamaged pipe, then cut away the debris, then put on a valve. This all takes time and planning. The technology required for this isn't space age: conventional backhoes and bulldozers protected by roofing tin and water sprays work just fine.
bill@dmntor.UUCP (Bill Kyle) (03/20/91)
In article <1991Mar14.151130.3822@welch.jhu.edu> jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) writes: >Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames >of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the >interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine >it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles >enable a smaller structure because of its ability to handle heat soooooooo >well. I have no idea what would go into building it, but with the devistation that these >fires are to doing to our environment, some experimenting with all possiblities >seems to the thing to do! > >Jim (jimh@welchlab.welch.jhu.edu) No. A) The various winds created by the heat and flame make it highly difficult to set up the structure B) The structure would act like a kiln, the heat would build-up to increadible levels possible to high for the tiles and certainly detremental to whatever foundation, sand floor, or whatever else that burns or melts. C) The environmental "devistation" is unfortunate but highly sensationalized by a press that's looking for material after the shooting has stopped.
btysingr@pelham.med.unc.edu (Barbara R. Tysinger) (03/21/91)
In article <6093@bwdls58.bnr.ca> pdbain@bwdls58.bnr.ca (Peter Bain) writes: > >Nice idea, but it turns out that extinguishing an oil-well fire is >easy: the people who do this for a living may extinguish a fire >several times in one day. The way they do it is (1) detonate some >explosive (the old way) or (2) pump fire-extinguisher powder >(basically baking soda) into the plume at the rate of several hundred >pounds per SECOND (whoosh!). They often re-light it intentionally to >reduce the explosion hazard. We should probably move this discussion to another group, but before we do .... There's a movie from the 1960's called _Hellfighters_ about a company that goes around putting out oilwell fires. Granted it's about 30 years old, (and drama too) but the basic technology probably hasn't changed that much, and I think it may give the layman a pretty good idea of what will be involved in putting out these fires. .....................All opinions are entirely my own.................... Barbara R. Tysinger Health Sciences Library University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill btysingr@med.unc.edu .........."He that has no fools, knaves nor beggars in his family........ .................was begat by lightning." -- Thomas Fuller...............
jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) (03/21/91)
In article <1991Mar19.174830.22589@dmntor.UUCP> bill@dmntor.UUCP (Bill Kyle) writes: >In article <1991Mar14.151130.3822@welch.jhu.edu> jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) writes: >>Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames >>of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the >>interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine >>it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles >>enable a smaller structure because of its ability to handle heat soooooooo >>well. I have no idea what would go into building it, but with the devistation that these >>fires are to doing to our environment, some experimenting with all possiblities >>seems to the thing to do! >> >>Jim (jimh@welchlab.welch.jhu.edu) > >No. > >A) The various winds created by the heat and flame make it highly difficult > to set up the structure > >B) The structure would act like a kiln, the heat would build-up to > increadible levels possible to high for the tiles and certainly > detremental to whatever foundation, sand floor, or whatever else > that burns or melts. > >C) The environmental "devistation" is unfortunate but highly sensationalized > by a press that's looking for material after the shooting has stopped. First, it was just an idea. It just seems that 4-5 days to fight one fire is a long time. Second, sorry to hear that you don't think the fire is going to cause major damage. Maybe you would like to live there? If the fire was the only "thing" we are doing to the system that supports us, then, yea, no problem. Also, lets not forget the oil spill as well. Let's not forget the diminishing forests around the world. Let's not forget the species that we lose yearly. Let's not forget acid rain. Let's not forget the nuclear accidents, escpicially in the Middle East since the war. Let's not forget the environmently wastelands of the USSR. Let's not forget about our depleting ozone. Let's not forget about the tons of top soil we lose each year. Let's not forget about the ever increasing desert in Africa. ect........ Third, This subject does not belong in this news group. Start reading sci.environment. Jim (jimh@welchlab.welch.jhu.edu)
bill@dmntor.UUCP (Bill Kyle) (03/22/91)
In article <1991Mar17.211535.9716@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> gardner@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Gardner) writes: >stan@Dixie.Com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>jimh@welch.jhu.edu (Jim Hoffman) writes: > >>>Just an idea. Scince fire needs oxygen to live, why not smother the flames >>>of the Middle East. Build a dome structure that has shuttle tiles as the >>>interior wall. For one, the flame will smother on its own smoke and combine >>>it with foam or water or what ever to cool it. Two, the shuttle tiles >Rather than try to smother, try to separate the "fire" from the "fuel". > >Build a "Y" section of pipe to be lowered over the well head. Each of the >top arms fo the Y would have nozzles and valves. When it is lowered >over the head, only one would be open. The unit would have to be large >enough and heavy enough to form a reasonable seal against the sand. The >flame front should move up to the top of the open arm of the Y as the unit >hits the sand. Once it's in place, the hot nozzle would be closed as the >cold one opened. The distance between the nozzles would have to be sufficient >to keep one from igniting the other as it goes out. As soon as things are >cool it could be removed and repairs begun. >mgg Sorry....this is not a candle that we are trying to put out. The heat and the force of the flames would destroy any apparatus being lowered onto the flames. As far as I know there are 2 methods being used today. A) Blow out the fire with an explosion B) Drill into the well pipe below the ground to choke the flames by diverting or blocking its fuel. All this stuff about domes and various devices being constructed greatly underestimate the heat and force of well-head fires. Bill K
fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (03/23/91)
In article <1991Mar21.215538.19983@dmntor.UUCP> bill@dmntor.UUCP (Bill Kyle) writes: > >As far as I know there are 2 methods being used today.[to snuff burning oil wells, as in Kuwait] > >A) Blow out the fire with an explosion > >B) Drill into the well pipe below the ground to choke the flames by >diverting or blocking its fuel. Or, in the case of one of the first well fires to be put out since the end of the ground action: Put guy in fire-fighting suit, walk over to wellhead, turn off valve to starve fire of fuel. Seems the Iraqi sapper set his charge above the shutoff valve for the well. If they did it once... -- ------------ The only drawback with morning is that it comes at such an inconvenient time of day. ------------
jenings@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Byron Jenings) (03/23/91)
Barbara R. Tysinger <btysingr@pelham.med.unc.edu> writes: |There's a movie from the 1960's called _Hellfighters_ about a company that |goes around putting out oilwell fires. Granted it's about 30 years old, |(and drama too) but the basic technology probably hasn't changed that much, |and I think it may give the layman a pretty good idea of what will be involved |in putting out these fires. Also, the story is true, the guy it's based on really exists, he appears in the movie, and he still runs a company that puts out oil-well fires. I read an article recently that quoted how many millions you had to pay him just to *look* at the fire, before even discussing putting it out. He's still considered one of the best in the business.
stan@Dixie.Com (Stan Brown) (03/24/91)
fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes: =>In article <1991Mar21.215538.19983@dmntor.UUCP> bill@dmntor.UUCP (Bill Kyle) writes: =>> =>>As far as I know there are 2 methods being used today.[to snuff burning oil wells, =>as in Kuwait] =>> =>>A) Blow out the fire with an explosion =>> =>>B) Drill into the well pipe below the ground to choke the flames by =>>diverting or blocking its fuel. =>Or, in the case of one of the first well fires to be put out since the end of the =>ground action: Put guy in fire-fighting suit, walk over to wellhead, turn off =>valve to starve fire of fuel. Seems the Iraqi sapper set his charge above the =>shutoff valve for the well. If they did it once... However, I heard that this may be the only one found so far with the control head intact. Also even if the demolitions crew did blow it in other places unless we find them sonn, and assuming the wellheads are close to each other the heat from the fires will probably destroy the control heads anyway. -- Stan Brown P. c. Design 404-363-2303 Ataant Ga. (emory|gatech|uunet) rsiatl!sdba!stan "vi forever"
jenings@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Byron Jenings) (03/26/91)
Bill Kyle <bill@dmntor.UUCP> writes: |Sorry....this is not a candle that we are trying to put out. The heat and |the force of the flames would destroy any apparatus being lowered onto the |flames. Just saw footage on CNN of somebody doing exactly this. They lowered a pipe over a burning well to move the flames well above ground level. Then, they build a building around the pipe with metal roofing, flooded the place with fire hoses [for cooling, not fire-fighting], and then sent in the repair crews to work in the shed while the fire was burning. They said they only put the fire out when they were done, since it would be dangerous to not have it burning. Putting out the fire was the easiest part of the process, repairing the plumbing is the difficult part.
echeverr@sal-sun8.usc.edu (The Black Sheep) (03/28/91)
Why isn't Halon being used to put the fires out? Should be very effective... am i right? %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "If it works, don't fix it." -Another Murphy Law Corollary _____ _ / Ron A Echeverri | | \ / BSAE 1994 Univ of So California |he |-<lack \heep email: echeverr%sal8.usc.edu@usc.edu | |_/ / /
stan@Dixie.Com (Stan Brown) (03/30/91)
echeverr@sal-sun8.usc.edu (The Black Sheep) writes: >Why isn't Halon being used to put the fires out? > Should be very effective... am i right? Wrong. Halon works by smothering a fire. It is heavier than air. Since thes fires are feed by high pressure sources, they would simply push the Halon out of the way. BTW waht hs this got to do with space? -- Stan Brown P. C. Design 404-363-2303 Ataanta Ga. (emory|gatech|uunet) rsiatl!sdba!stan "vi forever" "Operating Systems, Like Editors Are Religions" -- Armando Stettner