mfidelma@bbn.COM (Miles Fidelman) (01/06/88)
A while back I posted a query on object-oriented databases. Here are
the replies that I received. Thanks to all who responded.
Miles
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From: Robert Goldman <rpg%cs.brown.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
To: mfidelman@BBN.COM
Subject: object-oriented databases
I know that Stan Zdonik here at Brown has been doing some work on this with
his student Andrea Skarra. I think that they have a paper in last year's
OOPSLA.
Good luck,
Robert
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From: Jorge Gautier <gautier@CS.WISC.EDU>
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To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
Check out Won Kim, J. Banerjee et al.'s ORION Project at MCC.
I can give you more specific references if you want...
gautier@ai.cs.wisc.edu
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To: gautier@AI.WISC.EDU
cc: mfidelman@CC5.BBN.COM
Subject: re:re: query
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 87 16:25:36 -0500
From: "Miles R. Fidelman" <mfidelma@CC5.BBN.COM>
Jorge,
Thank you for the pointer. A more specific reference would be much
appreciated.
Miles
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From: Kathy Johnson <kj@BBN.COM>
Message-Id: <8711101831.AA16164@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Computer and Information Science
Cc:
I have been looking at some of these issues since our approach at Ohio State
needs such a database. The most interesting work I have seen so far is
on the KODIAK system which was developed by Robert Wilensky at UC Berkeley.
There is a chapter in a book which is written by him -- Chap 2 of "Experience,
Memory, and Reasoning" edited by Janet Kolodner and Christopher Riesbeck
(published by Lawrence Erlbaum Assoc. 1986 Hillsdale, NJ). I would be
interested in hearing about anything else you find out.
--Kathy Johnson
The Ohio State University
Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence Research
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To: "Miles R. Fidelman" <mfidelma@CC5.BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: query
Dead-Person-Of-The-Day: Ludwig Sylow (1832-1918)
Phase-Of-The-Moon: Waning Gibbous (75 percent of Full)
In-Reply-To: "Miles R. Fidelman"'s message of Mon, 09 Nov 87 16:25:36 -0500.
<8711092128.AA11572@ai.wisc.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 87 15:46:16 -0600
From: "Jorge A. Gautier" <gautier@NEUFCHATEL.WISC.EDU>
On the ORION system at MCC:
Jay Banerjee et al., Data Model Issues for Object-Oriented Applications,
``ACM Transactions on Office Information Systems,'' vol. 5 no. 1,
January 1987, pp. 3-26.
Jay Banerjee et al., Queries in Object-Oriented Databases,
MCC Technical Report DB-188-87, June 1987.
There are more MCC reports about ORION, I've just read these two.
I think Won Kim is the ORION project leader.
On the IRIS system at HPLabs:
D.H. Fishman et al., Iris: An Object-Oriented Database Management System,
``ACM Transactions on Office Information Systems,'' vol. 5 no. 1,
January 1987, pp. 48-69.
There's also a group in France, Altair (that's an i with two dots), that's
doing OODB, but from the talk I heard earlier this semester by
Francois Bancilhon it doesn't seem like they're doing it the `right' way.
OODB is the latest `fad' in DB. Check recent proceedings/
issues of SIGMOD, VLDB, TOIS, OOPSLA and I'm sure you'll find more about it.
Disclaimer: I am not a DB student, just taking a DB class this semester
and reading up for my project. I may still be missing more basic/
important works.
Good luck,
Jorge
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From: Arun Welch <welch@OHIO-STATE.ARPA>
Message-Id: <8711102206.AA24323@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Computer and Information Science
There's a company in France called Graphael or some such doing work on OO
databases, running on TI Explorers. I seem to remember seeing them at AAAI.
We've also done work on intelligent databases, built on top of Loops.
...arun
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University.
welch@ohio-state.{CSNET,ARPA}
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From: Mike Percy <grimlok@HUBCAP.CLEMSON.EDU>
Message-Id: <8711100207.AA19773@hubcap.clemson.edu>
To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
mfidelma@bbn.COM (Miles Fidelman):
> Xref: hubcap comp.ai:938 comp.databases:512
>
> Can anyone point me to work in the area of applying database technology
> to supporting object oriented environments?
>
Well, I am currently working on an effort to design a breadth-first
Prolog for our FPS T hypercube here at Clemson University for an
independent study class (and possibly, hopefully, it will carry over
into master's work). My goal resolution and unification systems are
turning out to be more and more like database problems. At least, it
seems like I will eventually apply database techniques to the systems.
If you receive any helpful responses on this, I would appreciate if you
could forard a reading list. Most of what I have is from reading
Warner's papers, and Shapiro's, and a few others. Then I saw the need
for database technology and started digging into the db stuff. But I
have not seen any ties between the two so far in the literature.
Mike Percy
Computer Science
Clemson University
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From: "Jesper L. Lauritsen" <mcvax!diku!jesper@UUNET.UU.NET>
Message-Id: <8711102133.AA23008@diku.dikunet.uucp>
To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
References: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
In article <4528@cc5.bbn.COM> you write:
>Can anyone point me to work in the area of applying database technology
>to supporting object oriented environments?
Below is references to a few articles. I don't think I have seen anything
realy interesting on the subject (I have not seriusly been looking for it
thoug). I'd like to hear what find.
Gio Wiederhold, Views, Objects, and Databases
IEEE someting, Dec 86
A. J. Baroody, jr. & D. J. DeWitt
An Object-Oriented Approch to Database System Implementation
TODS, vol.6,no.4, Dec 81
S.L. Osborn & T.E. Heaven
The Design of a Relational Database System with Abstract Data
Types for Domains
TODS, vol.11,no.3, Sep 86
----------
Jesper L. Lauritsen, U. of Copenhagen, Inst. of Datalogy
...!mcvax!diku!jesper
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From: Greg Michelson <blia.UUCP!blic!gregm@CGL.UCSF.EDU>
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To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
News-Path: blia!voder!pyramid!hplabs!sri-unix!husc6!bbn!mfidelma
References: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
One commercial product is
KEE Connection from
INTELLICORP, Mt. View, CA
(415) 965-5500
works with some relational database products
including Britton Lee's Rel. DBMS
from: Greg Michelson (gregm)
Britton Lee
Los Gatos CA, 95030
(408) 378-7000
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From: lepine%debit.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM
To: mfidelman@BBN.COM, LEPINE@DECWRL.DEC.COM
Subject: Object-oriented databases
Miles,
I saw your posting for information on object-oriented databases. I have been
involved with database work for several years (currently doing contract work
for the Database Systems Group at DEC). I too have recently become interested
in the concept of object-oriented databases. I would appreciate hearing any
replies that you might receive and will try to put together what information I
have on the topic (it is at home, unfortunately).
Thanks,
Normand Lepine
lepine@nova.dec.com
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To: AMES.ARPA!hao!husc6!bbn!mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mt. View, CA (415) 941-3912
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In article <4528@cc5.bbn.COM> you write:
>Can anyone point me to work in the area of applying database technology
>to supporting object oriented environments?
>
>It strikes me that database technology tends to focus on supporting large
>production databases, with attention to fast processing speeds, maintaining
>database integrity, journalizing/checkpointing, etc.; while object oriented
>environments are basically prototyping environments.
>
>Has anyone been working on making a production object oriented environment?
>
>Thanks much,
>
>Miles Fidelman
>email to: mfidelman@bbn.com
Miles that is exactly what needs to be done.
The problem with the objects in OOP's today is that they only have meaning
while they are "loaded into lisp" ie read into the lisp processes virtual
memory. Objects arent queryable by a database system (or higher level query
language ie lisp ;-). Smalltalk is better than lisp but still not saveable
(correct me please).
Also having non-permanent objects means you either need:
1) twice as much storage to hold your objects and load them into.
2) infinitely faster processors so you can re-process your results each
time the power goes out.
The 87 OOPSLA conference is addresses these issues somewhat although
there isnt a Borland OOP out yet that has save/restore/query
capability. Fast query will be the metric for measurment of OOP dbase
systems for years (not loading time!!). Lisp systems should stop
pretending that disk drives dont exist.
JD
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 09:06:33 est
From: John Henshaw <geac!john@UUNET.UU.NET>
Message-Id: <8711121406.AA16191@geac.UUCP>
To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: The little blue rock next to that twinkly star.
Cc:
Professor Stavros Christodoulakis at the Universty of Waterloo, in
Waterloo, Ontario has done a lot of work w.r.t. O-O database technology.
You might try querying root@watmath for his path - he's on the net.
-john-
--
John Henshaw, (mnetor, yetti, utgpu !geac!john)
Geac Computers Ltd. "...and bring along a major credit card
Markham, Ontario, Canada, eh? and a piece of ID..."
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From: Jonathan Delatizky <DELATIZKY@V1.BBN.COM>
Subject: Object Oriented Databases
To: mfidelma@CC5.BBN.COM
I saw your query in AIList. There is a company in the area (I think they're
in Billerica - at least, they used to be) called Ontologic, which is
developing a commercial object oriented database. Some people from
dept 45 went to visit them recently. I don't know how much of the traditional
DBMS baggage of transaction locking, rollbacks, etc. they will support,
but I suspect quite a bit to make a viable commercial product.
I have an old number for them - 667-2383. I don't guarantee its accuracy.
...jon
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To: sfsup!sfmag!ulysses!mhuxt!ihnp4!homxb!mtuxo!mtune!rutgers!husc6!bbn!mfidelma
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups:
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: AT&T Information Systems
Cc:
In article <4528@cc5.bbn.COM> you write:
>Can anyone point me to work in the area of applying database technology
>to supporting object oriented environments?
>
>It strikes me that database technology tends to focus on supporting large
>production databases, with attention to fast processing speeds, maintaining
>database integrity, journalizing/checkpointing, etc.; while object oriented
>environments are basically prototyping environments.
>
>Has anyone been working on making a production object oriented environment?
>
>Thanks much,
>
>Miles Fidelman
>email to: mfidelman@bbn.com
Object oriented databases is still a very new field. We here at AT&T
have built our own in support of a software administration
environment. There is at least one commercial object oriented
database, called GemStone from a Servio Logic in Oregon. The best
reference I can offer you is the Jan 1987 issue of the "ACM
Transactions on Office Information Systems." This was a special issue
on object oriented databases.
Sivan Mahadevan
AT&T R&D
attunix!sivan
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From: Brian Nixon <nixon%ai.toronto.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Message-Id: <8711131703.AA02276@ai.toronto.edu>
To: mfidelman@BBN.COM
Subject: Object oriented databases
Dear Miles Fidelman,
Our group has been very interested in the application of DB technology
to implementation of (entity-based) semantic data models. If you'd like to
receive some reports from the Taxis project, please send your postal
address.
Cordially,
Brian Nixon
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Toronto
Toronto, Ontario
Canada. M5S 1A4
nixon@ai.toronto.edu
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 87 13:50 EST
From: "Daniel L. Weinreb" <DLW@alderaan.scrc.symbolics.com>
Subject: object oriented database query
To: mfidelman@BBN.COM
In-Reply-To: The message of 9 Nov 87 12:48 EST from Miles Fidelman <bbn!mfidelma@husc6.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <19871113185019.8.DLW@CHICOPEE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Date: 9 Nov 87 17:48:51 GMT
From: bbn!mfidelma@husc6.harvard.edu (Miles Fidelman)
Can anyone point me to work in the area of applying database technology
to supporting object oriented environments?
Here's my own personal bibliography of papers on this topic, organized
by group:
This is an annotated list of groups working on or planning to work on
"object-oriented database systems". It is based on what I heard at
OOPSLA, as well as the published literature. With each group name, I've
listed some of the people involved, mainly including the ones who seem
to be the leaders and the ones who we know personally. When I say
"TOIS" I refer to the issue of ACM Transactions on Office Information
Systems, Vol. 5 #1 Jan 1987, the special issue on object-oriented
databases.
Orion
MCC Database Program
Won Kim, Jay Bannerjee, Darrell Woelk, Nat Ballou, Hong-Tai Chou, Jorge Garza
"A Unifying Framework for Version Control in a CAD Environment" 12th VLDB 84
"An Object-Oriented Approach to Multimedia Databases" SIGMOD 86
"Data Model Issues for Object-Oriented Applications" TOCS Jan 87
"Composite Object Support in an Object-Oriented Database System" OOPSLA-87
"Semantics and Implementation of Schema Evolution in Object-Oriented Databases" SIGMOD 87
"Operations and Implementation of Complex Objects" Proc Data Eng Conf Feb 87
GemStone
Servio-Logic Corp. and Oregon Graduate Center
David Maier, Alan Purdy, Jacob Stein, G. Copeland
"Making Smalltalk a Database System" SIGMOD 84
"Data Model Requirements for Engineering Applications" Proc Intl Workshop on
Expert Database Systems, 84
"A Decomposition Storage Model" SIGMOD 85
"Object-Oriented DBMS Development at Servio-Logic" Database Eng 18:4 Dec 85
"Integrating an Object Server with Other Worlds" TOCS Jan 87
"Class Modification in the GemStone Object-Oriented DBMS" OOPSLA-87
"Indexing in an Object-Oriented DBMS" Intl Workshop on OODB Sept 86
"Development of an Object-Oriented DBMS" OOPSLA-86
"Is the Disk Half Full or Half Empty?: Combining Optimistic and
Pessimistic Concurrency Mechanisms in a Shared, Persistent
Object Base" To appear: Workshop on Persistent Object Stores,
Appin, Scotland, Aug 87
Iris
HP Labs
Dan Fishman, Peter Lyngbaek, Jim Kempf
"Iris: An Object-Oriented Database Management System" TOCS Jan 87
"Some Aspects of operations in an Object-Oriented Database" Database Eng 8:4 Dec 85
Encore/ObServer
Brown Univ.
Stan Zdonik, Mark Hornik
"A Shared, Segmented Memory System for an Object-Oriented Database" TOCS Jan 87
"Object management system concepts" Proc SIGOA Conf on Office Info Sys 84
"Object management systems for design environments" Database Eng 8:4 Dec 85
"Towards object-oriented database environments" Brown Univ TR 85
"The Management of Changing Types in an Object-Oriented Database" OOPSLA-86
"Language and Methodology for Object-Oriented Database Environments" 19th HICSS Jan 86
Postgres/Objfads
U. C. Berkeley
Mike Stonebraker, Larry Rowe
"The Design of Postgres" SIGMOD Record Vol 15 No 2 June 86
"Extending a Database System with Procedures" SIGMOD Vol 12 No 3 Sept 87
"A Form Application Development System" SIGMOD 82
"QUEL as a Datatype" SIGMOD 84
"Object Management in a Relational Database System" IEEE ??? (I have a copy)
"Application of Abstract Datatypes and Abstract Indices to CAD Data" Database
Week Conference on Eng App, IEEE, May 83
"Inclusion of New Types in Relational Database Systems" Proc 2nd Intl Conf on Data Eng Feb 86
Vbase
Ontologic Corp
Tim Andrews, Craig Harris, Craig Damon
"Combining Language and Database Advances in an Object-Oriented Development Environment"
OOPSLA-87
<Follow-on to Owl/Trellis>
DEC Hudson
Craig Schaffert, Pat O'Brien
"Persistent and Shared Objects in Trellis/Owl" DEC-TR-440 July 86, also
1986 Workshop on OODB Systems, Sept 86
It strikes me that database technology tends to focus on supporting large
production databases, with attention to fast processing speeds, maintaining
database integrity, journalizing/checkpointing, etc.; while object oriented
environments are basically prototyping environments.
Has anyone been working on making a production object oriented environment?
The Symbolics Genera programming environment is certainly a production
system, rather than a prototype, and is makes heavy use of object
oriented programming. You could also look at several papers published
in the OOPSLA proceedings, which were distributed as the Nov 86 and Dec
87 SIGPLAN Notices.
I am working on an object-oriented database for Genera, which will fit
in with our object-oriented programming language features. I haven't
written a full-length paper yet, but I have a summary of what it's
about, if you're interested.
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databases/17
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From: Richard Fritzson <fritzson@BIGBURD.PRC.UNISYS.COM>
Message-Id: <8711101135.AA11998@bigburd.PRC.Unisys.COM>
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Date: 10 Nov 87 06:33 EST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
In-Reply-To: mfidelma@bbn.COM's message of 9 Nov 87 17:48:51 GMT
To: mfidelma@BBN.COM
Cc: fritzson@BIGBURD.PRC.UNISYS.COM
Graphael
255 Bear Hill Rd
Waltham MA 02154
Sells G-BASE and G-LOGIS. The former is a production quality object
oriented database; the latter is a prolog which can operate on it.
Servio Logic Corp
15025 S.W. Koll Parkway, 1a
Beaverton, OR 97006
Sells GEMSTONE, an object oriented database.
Ontologic, Inc.
47 Manning Rd
Bilerica, MA 01821
Sells VBASE, an object oriented database.
There are also a significant number of ongoing research projects at
universities, other corporations and the MCC. A significant portion
of OOPSLA-87 was about object-oriented databases.
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databases/18
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 87 06:58:52 est
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To: harvard!bbn!mfidelma@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: object oriented database query
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.databases
In-Reply-To: <4528@cc5.bbn.COM>
Organization: Micro Database Systems, Inc., Lafayette IN
Cc:
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GURU is a rule based development environment that includes
inference engine, data base, spreadsheet and many other decision support
tools. Although it is not strictly object oriented it offers a real
development environment for rule based applications that integrates db.
Besides being an employee of mdbs I am enthusiastic GURU user.
for more info contact:
Micro Data Base Systems Inc.
P.O. Box 248
Lafayette, IN 47902
(317) 463-2581
I would certainly be interested in participating in discussions about GURU
use.