km@emory.uucp (Ken Mandelberg) (02/02/88)
Here is a suggestion for future Winter USENIX scheduling.
I suggest that USENIX be displaced one additional day later
than UNIFORUM. That would mean tutorials on Wed/Thurs and
technical conference on Fri/Sat.
Advantages:
1) People taking two tutorials and trying to attend as much
of the (already parallel session) technical conference, could
still have a free day to visit the Uniforum exhibits if they
wished.
2) Many of us are on low budgets, and the airfares are much
lower if you stay a Saturday night.
3) Some academic schedules have Tuesday/Thursday classes. If
the conference starts Tuesday and ends Friday you miss an
entire week of classes.
--
Ken Mandelberg | {decvax,sun!sunatl,gatech}!emory!km UUCP
Emory University | km@emory BITNET
Dept of Math and CS | km@emory.ARPA ARPA,CSNET
Atlanta, GA 30322 | Phone: (404) 727-7963ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) (02/06/88)
(A disagreement and a counter-suggestion) Ken Mandelberg suggests that Usenix run Wednesday through Saturday rather than Tuesday through Friday. While this improves the siutation for those in schools with Tueday/Thursday classes, it makes it next to impossible for observant Jews to attend, since they need to leave before sundown Friday. I have no idea what the proportion of people this would affect in general; there are several people where I work who would be affected. Another consideration is those of us who are in the commercial world rather than academia. Many of us would not look kindly on being asked to work on a weekend for no extra pay, and our companies would probably not want to pay us overtime to go to Usenix. And finally, those of us with families may feel that weekends are family-time and work-related meetings like Usenix should not interfere. Perhaps having the tutorials on Wednesday and Saturday, with the main sessions not changed, would satisfy the most people. On the other hand, those who stand in the middle of the road get hit by trucks coming from both directions. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) (02/07/88)
In article <3148@mtgzy.UUCP> ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes: >Ken Mandelberg suggests that Usenix run Wednesday through Saturday rather than >Tuesday through Friday. [various objections deleted] >Perhaps having the tutorials on Wednesday and Saturday, with the main sessions >not changed, would satisfy the most people. On the other hand, those who stand >in the middle of the road get hit by trucks coming from both directions. (indeed!) Speaking from a mostly-outsider-but-having-heard-some-things point of view, I note that this argument (as well as the one-vs-two-vs-n-tracks) apparently occurs during the scheduling of *every* USENIX, and in the end the arguers wind up agreeing that the current situation is best. Unless something unusual happens, I doubt the scheduling will change until USENIX grows large enough that the conference itself changes from one to two weeks. (When that may occur I dare not guess.) -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris
david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- Resident E-mail Hack) (02/09/88)
well, speaking as someone who has never been to a usenix, I'll say
the two reasons why I've never been.
1) time; it's during the week and I seem to always be tied up in
a semester when usenix comes around. That is, well the winter
meet is in February (in a week or two). I'd have to miss a
week of classes. Usually I also take summer classes ... and
missing a week of summer classes is much worse than missing
a week of classes during a normal semester.
2) money; I'm not your normal poor-starving-college-student, but
I'm close enough that I spend money like I am one.
Of the two the timing is the more important. I manage to go to
lots of things during the years ... SCA events mainly, and also
SF Conventions. I would *really*love* to come to a Usenix and
could easily manage it if it were mostly over a weekend.
--
<---- David Herron -- The E-Mail guy <david@ms.uky.edu>
<---- or: {rutgers,uunet,cbosgd}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<----
<---- It takes more than a good memory to have good memories.grob@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (Lori S. Grob) (02/09/88)
In article <8276@e.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- Resident E-mail Hack) writes: >well, speaking as someone who has never been to a usenix, I'll say >the two reasons why I've never been. > >1) time; it's during the week and I seem to always be tied up in > a semester when usenix comes around. That is, well the winter > meet is in February (in a week or two). I'd have to miss a > week of classes. Usually I also take summer classes ... and > missing a week of summer classes is much worse than missing > a week of classes during a normal semester. >2) money; I'm not your normal poor-starving-college-student, but > I'm close enough that I spend money like I am one. > >Of the two the timing is the more important. I manage to go to >lots of things during the years ... SCA events mainly, and also >SF Conventions. I would *really*love* to come to a Usenix and >could easily manage it if it were mostly over a weekend. >-- ><---- David Herron -- The E-Mail guy <david@ms.uky.edu> ><---- or: {rutgers,uunet,cbosgd}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET ><---- ><---- It takes more than a good memory to have good memories. I don't know if any of the people suggesting changes have ever been involved with booking a large conference at a hotel? The arrangements, as far as dates often have to be made 2-3 years in advance, at least for a conference of a couple thousand people. So many of the people who are concerned about missing classes will be in some completely different situation by the time any changes can be made. Also, the conference is moving towards a longer, larger conference (it is now 3 days of technical sessions with a least 1 or 2 days of split tracks). Many people have also been complaining about the split tracks. There doesn't seem to be any realistic way to fit it in over a weekend. Finally as someone mentioned, I don't think the majority of usenix attendees are college students and the rest of the folks probably want to be with their families on weekends. This is not to say that it wouldn't be highly desirable to get more college students to attend but there doesn't seem to be a schedule that can contain 3 full days of technical program (maybe more soon?) and allow people to arrive and leave from all over the country and not miss classes. (Arrive Thursday night to check in, Fri-Sun program, leave Monday morning) will still have people missing classes and then what about people whose religious beliefs will not let them attend on Sat or Sun.? Perhaps there could be more Usenix functions oriented towards students and their schedules? Lori S. Grob (NYU Ultracomputer Project) grob@nyu.arpa {mcvax!seismo,floyd,harpo,ihnp4,...}!cmcl2!grob [That's c-m-c-ELL-2] Courant Institute (NYU), 251 Mercer St., NYC 10012, 212-998-3350
ron@ccd700.UUCP (ron) (02/10/88)
In article <23026@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, grob@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (Lori S. Grob) writes: > In article <8276@e.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron) writes: > >SF Conventions. I would *really*love* to come to a Usenix and > >could easily manage it if it were mostly over a weekend. > I don't know if any of the people suggesting changes have ever been involved > with booking a large conference at a hotel? The arrangements, as far as dates > often have to be made 2-3 years in advance, at least for a conference of a > couple thousand people. [deleted] > (Arrive Thursday night to check in, Fri-Sun program, leave Monday morning) > will still have people missing classes and then what about people whose > religious beliefs will not let them attend on Sat or Sun.? Excuse please. I have been involved in National conventions that are held yearly over the Memorial Day weekend. Our organization seems to have little problem in getting the hotel in less than a one year cycle! It also seems to be very easy for students and such to arrage the one or two days they may want to take for this event and I have NEVER heard any of the membership complain about (self)violation of religious beliefs. Each year our pattern is the same... arrive friday evening and begin the warm up festivities. Hit it hard on Saturday and Sunday. Take it easy on Monday or go home. I admit that this is not the 3 day plus that you are moving towards, but I do think that a better consideration of time is possible. for what it's worth. ron tribble ...mibte!ccd700!ron
jsq@longway.TIC.COM (John S. Quarterman) (02/15/88)
In article <109@ccd700.UUCP> ron@ccd700.UUCP (ron) writes: > Excuse please. I have been involved in National conventions that >are held yearly over the Memorial Day weekend. Our organization seems to >have little problem in getting the hotel in less than a one year cycle! How many people attend your conventions? How much meeting space do you use? Do you have something equivalent to a vendor exhibit or trade show? >It also seems to be very easy for students and such to arrage the one or >two days they may want to take for this event and I have NEVER heard any >of the membership complain about (self)violation of religious beliefs. Interesting. Regarding students, though, note that your convention is on the weekend. > I admit that this is not the 3 day plus that you are moving >towards, but I do think that a better consideration of time is possible. Four or five days, actually, counting both the technical and tutorial schedules. Suggestions are always welcome, but the current arrangement is hardly arbitrary, being the result of constant negotiation. Dallas and San Diego both had a day added to their schedules last October, if I recall correctly, to avoid having papers and tutorials overlap. (Expanding hotel bookings is easier than getting them in the first place.)
ables@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP (King Ables) (02/17/88)
For what it's worth, one thing you have to keep in mind is
Usenix (with a few exceptions) is a BUSINESS conference...
i.e. people go there to learn and converse with piers to
help them in their work (mostly) and therefore the trips are
paid for by the employers. These people would like weekends
off since this is pretty much like a week of work (ok, ok, not
exactly like it ;-) ;-) ). Sure there are students who go,
but the conference isn't made expressly for the students. If
they can get away to attend, that's great. I didn't go when I
was a student because I couldn't afford to take the time, either,
so I do understand that.
Usenix is comparable to what DECUS is for the DEC world. It's
a professional conference. Professional conferences are held
during the week. Recreational conferences are usually held over
a weekend (because people can't usually take off from their jobs
for a Sci-Fi convention!).
Perhaps a nice compromise would be if Usenix is expanded, expand
it over a Saturday and put the more student-oriented things during
that day. Then people on a tight time/money budget could come
in for one or two days and return on Sunday and not miss much
of anything in their real lives. And anyone who was REALLY interested
in something on a Saturday could stay (I very often stay until
sometime on Saturday just because I don't want to fight the mad
exudous on Friday nights!).
The real problem Usenix has these days is the attendance is so
large (and the Usenix Association likes to keep things in the
same hotel if possible, or at least in two-- not spread all over
town) that there are a limited number of cities that can even handle
a Usenix conference and those places are in high demand so reservations
have to be made YEARS in advance. You don't think they came back to
Dallas this year (after having just been there in 1985) because they
just love Dallas, do you?
-king
ARPA: ables@mcc.com
UUCP: {gatech,ihnp4,nbires,seismo,ucb-vax}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!ables
Don't give me sh*t about Dallas... I *like* Dallas... I used to live
in Ft. Worth. I was born in Texas... I just think there are nicer
places to have a conference, that's all.scs@m2-net.UUCP (Steve C. Simmons) (02/17/88)
The summary line says it all. My weekends are for family, SF cons, etc.
gwyn@brl-smoke.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) (02/18/88)
In article <281@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP> ables@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP (King Ables) writes: >Usenix (with a few exceptions) is a BUSINESS conference... I think you're confusing USENIX with /usr/group. Uniforum is the business conference; USENIX is supposed to hold technical conferences.
grob@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (Lori S. Grob) (02/18/88)
In article <7269@brl-smoke.ARPA> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes: >In article <281@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP> ables@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP (King Ables) writes: >>Usenix (with a few exceptions) is a BUSINESS conference... > >I think you're confusing USENIX with /usr/group. Uniforum is the >business conference; USENIX is supposed to hold technical conferences. None the less it is professional as opposed to recreational. It is also coordinated with /usr/group for at least one conference a year.
ables@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP (King Ables) (02/20/88)
in article <7269@brl-smoke.ARPA>, gwyn@brl-smoke.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) says: > > In article <281@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP> ables@hi3.aca.mcc.com.UUCP (King Ables) writes: >>Usenix (with a few exceptions) is a BUSINESS conference... > > I think you're confusing USENIX with /usr/group. Uniforum is the > business conference; USENIX is supposed to hold technical conferences. No, I'm not confusing the two... I'm differentiating between a business conference and a recreational conference. Technical conferences (for the purposes of this illustration) fall under business conference because you attend them to help you in your work (most people do, at least, yes, there are a few that go just to improve themselves, but that is by far the minority). This is as opposed to Star Trek conventions and the like which are usually held on weekends. -king ARPA: ables@mcc.com UUCP: {gatech,ihnp4,nbires,seismo,ucb-vax}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!ables
reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) (02/23/88)
In article <23203@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> grob@cmcl2.UUCP (Lori S. Grob) writes: > [stuff about nature of USENIX Conf deleted....] >None the less it is professional as opposed to recreational. It is also >coordinated with /usr/group for at least one conference a year. This brings us to an interesting point. The reason for the recent conference being held in Dallas was to make it easy for USENIX attendees to attend the UniForum Trade Show. Being this was the first time I made it to a Winter USENIX being held in the same city as UniForum, it was my first experiences with UniForum. My question for discussion is: how important a factor is it to people that they be able to attend a UniForum Trade Show while attending a USENIX Conference? Certainly, without this restriction there would be more variety in sites for the winter conference. As long as the winter conference is held concurrently with UniForum, we will be restricted to Washington, D.C., Dallas, and what ever west coast site UniForum chooses. UniForum is mostly being rotated among these three sites, so that is all if the winter conference is continued to be scheduled concurrently with UniForum. Someone was complaining about going to Dallas in 1988, three years after the 1985 conference. Well get ready for it again in 1991, 94, 97,...... Got it! There are good arguments for and against holding the two concurrenlty. For many folks who can not go to UNIX EXPO in New York each October, UniForum provides a great way to see what is new in products. By scheduling the winter conference along with UniForum this provides such a person the opportunity to see what is new in technology and in products. It has been argued that if both conferences were not scheduled at the same time, there would be less attendance at USENIX. Is this really true? I attended the winter conference in Denver back in 1986 and thought it was a great success. For me there were enough vendors who set up suites to demonstrate products. Most of the stuff that you see at the trade shows is not really new anyway (or shouldn't be) to those who are technically oriented. For the business folk I'm sure it is a different situation. Perhaps the question should be: how many business versus technical people attend USENIX that wouldn't come if UniForum were not there? Besides the vendors at USENIX are prepared (I hope) to deal with people who are more technically astute than the typical UniForum attendee. One problem I had with trying to see everything I could at the trade show and all of the conference sessions was the distance one had to travel, the time it took, and the limited number of hours that the trade show was open after the USENIX conference sessions were over. The hours of the trade show were: Tuesday - Noon to 7 PM Wednesday - 10 AM to 6 PM Thursday - 10 Am to 4 PM Tuesday and Wednesday were tutorial days, so if one does not attend the tutorials then you can spend lots of time at UniForum. However, it is possible to attend tutorials, hop on the shuttle and get to UniForum for some limited time at the trade show. But the weather has a lot to do with that as some people found out in Dallas. However, forget the Thursday session, it overlaps with the conference sessions at USENIX. If the trade show's hours were more flexible it would make it more worthwhile. But, in order to attend the trade show I had to forget about any tutorials. In addition, one must make scheduling decisions concerning BOF sessions and other events at both conferences. In fact, some BOFs would probably been better off being held at USENIX rather than UniForum. For example, the Sun BOFs, most of which were announced here, were held on Monday evening. The turnout was rather sparse. If these sessions had been held at USENIX rather than UniForum, the rooms probably would have been overflowing. Another problem, would be for vendors. If I were a vendor wouldn't I rather kill two birds with one stone? Why go to USENIX and get a suite and then go to UniForum and rent floor space? Well I would say it is a case of quantity versus quality. UniForum certainly packs em in, but USENIX attracts the kind of crowd that any vendor would like to show their product off to. The people who attend USENIX will have as much input, if not more, into purchasing decisions than the business types who attend UniForum, as UNIX EXPO as well, with that wide eyed look in their eyes. So, you say why am I going on and on and on about this anyway? I mean so whats the big deal anyway. Well, there are a group of us down here in Florida who would like to bring a USENIX conference to this area. The winter conference would be ideal because January is an off month for the local tourist trade. The rates are lower and the area is less crowded. And certainly the weather is better than Washington or Dallas :-) However, as long as the winter conference continues to follow UniForum this will not happen. We may still be able to sponsor a summer conference, but the situation for a winter conference would seem to be ideal. Any Comments???? -- George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation {gatech,rutgers,attmail}!codas!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 Largo, FL 34649-2826
che@pbhyf.UUCP (Mitch Che) (02/25/88)
In article <2305@pdn.UUCP> reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) writes: >people found out in Dallas. However, forget the Thursday session, it overlaps >with the conference sessions at USENIX. If the trade show's hours were more >flexible it would make it more worthwhile. But, in order to attend the trade >show I had to forget about any tutorials... Almost sounds like you want Uniforum to adjust its trade show hours for USENIX attendees. I don't think the Uniforum organizers really care THAT much about the folks attending USENIX! They pick prime, business hours to hold their trade show. I wouldn't do any differently. >rather kill two birds with one stone? Why go to USENIX and get a suite and >then go to UniForum and rent floor space? Well I would say it is a case of >quantity versus quality. UniForum certainly packs em in, but USENIX attracts >the kind of crowd that any vendor would like to show their product off to. >The people who attend USENIX will have as much input, if not more, into >purchasing decisions than the business types who attend UniForum, as UNIX EXPO >as well, with that wide eyed look in their eyes. Hmm, UNIX hasn't exactly been a rousing success in terms of MIS/DP dollars spent to date. In my opinion, engineers and technical staff, even senior technical staff, do not have the kind of purchasing power of a few well-placed "business types" who have been shown the light :-) and decide to support UNIX h/w and s/w acquisition in their companies. That's been one of UNIX's problems, the (incorrect) belief that UNIX is for a niche market, strictly for the techies. UNIX salespeople drool over the kind of $$ spent just on peripherals and maintenance in DEC and IBM environments. I'd want to sell UNIX and products to middle and upper management, not to people who are experts on the kernel who already know the answer to the question: WHY UNIX? Vendors are still working on those who are asking: WHAT'S UNIX? -- Mitch Che Pacific Bell "Fine Corinthian leather? Of course. --------------------------------------- From fine Corinthian cows..." disclaimer, disclaimer, too 415-823-2454 uucp:ames!ptsfa!pbhyf!che