day@grand.UUCP (Dave Yost) (10/15/88)
The USENIX C++ Conference is coming up next week. As the person who instigated the first USENIX C++ Conference/Workshop last year, and, in its early stages, this conference, I want to tell you why last June I bowed out of my involvement with the upcoming conference. I pulled away from the C++ conferences because I became disenchanted with C++. I used to be enthusiastic about C++ because it offered new and wonderful expressive power in the form of object-oriented programming features with the implication that by providing these features as extensions to C, we can easily build on what we already know and ease into new power. Sounds nice, but it doesn't seem to work that way. C++ continues to amaze me with how hairy and complex it is. I want a higher level language that is easy to read, relieves me of details, and lets me get on with the problem level. I don't see C++ answering that desire. Yes, strongly-typed object orientation seems like the right direction, but it can be a lot nicer than C++. --dave yost
robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) (10/19/88)
In article <441@grand.UUCP>, day@grand.UUCP (Dave Yost) writes: > Yes, strongly-typed object orientation seems like > the right direction, but it can be a lot nicer than > C++. Funny, I had the same feelings and read Bertrand Meyer's book about Eiffel. Seems to me like one of the best oo languages available today. -- Robert Claeson, ERBE DATA AB, P.O. Box 77, S-175 22 Jarfalla, Sweden Tel: +46 758-202 50 Fax: +46 758-197 20 Email: robert@pvab.se (soon rclaeson@erbe.se)
daveb@gonzo.UUCP (Dave Brower) (10/23/88)
In article <328@pvab.UUCP> robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) writes: >Funny, I had the same feelings and read Bertrand Meyer's book about >Eiffel. Seems to me like one of the best oo languages available today. With the (possible) exception of Ada, the main thing that gets people to move towards a new language is the availability of a cheap workable implementation. C came with your Unix system, C++ has the cheap site license and a free G++. Eiffel, which looks interesting, has one implementation, a real-priced commericial product. The same is basically true of Euclid, which 5 years ago looked as interesting as Modula-2. Modula-3, for which we've just seen some propaganda, is also not available. AT&T did a very smart thing with c++, getting a seed implementation out cheaply to build a core user base. Others might take a lesson. -dB
robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) (10/30/88)
In article <442@gonzo.UUCP>, daveb@gonzo.UUCP (Dave Brower) writes: > With the (possible) exception of Ada, the main thing that gets people to > move towards a new language is the availability of a cheap workable > implementation. C came with your Unix system, C++ has the cheap site > license and a free G++. > > Eiffel, which looks interesting, has one implementation, a real-priced > commericial product. Interactive charges a lot of money for the Eiffel compiler and tools. But there are people out there who are working on other implementations of Eiffel as well... At least one of them is said to be PD or at least freely available. -- Robert Claeson, ERBE DATA AB, P.O. Box 77, S-175 22 Jarfalla, Sweden Tel: +46 758-202 50 Fax: +46 758-197 20 EUnet: rclaeson@erbe.se ARPAnet: rclaeson%erbe.se@uunet.uu.net
bertrand@hub.ucsb.edu (Bertrand Meyer) (10/31/88)
In article <335@pvab.UUCP>, robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) writes: > > Interactive charges a lot of money for the Eiffel compiler and tools. > Just how much money constitutes ``a lot of money'' is a matter of opinion and you are free to have your own. Just two comments for the record: 1 - Eiffel is a commercial product; its developers have neither the resources of a giant corporation nor the government funds which would permit them to indulge in dumping. However we believe our prices are quite reasonable when compared to other CASE tools and to other commercial implementations of object-oriented languages. For academic users, cheap licenses are available. 2 - Whatever individual opinions may be, I would hate to let the idea that ``Eiffel is great but only rich people can afford it'' become part of accepted wisdom. The net is not the appropriate place to post a price list but I urge any interested party to get concrete pricing information from the appropriate source. -- Bertrand Meyer Interactive Software Engineering, 270 Storke Road Suite 7 Goleta CA 93117 - Phone 805-685-1006, Fax 805-685-6869 In Europe: Societe des Outils du Logiciel Centre d'Affaires 3MPP, 4 rue Rene Barthelemy 92120 Montrouge France Phone (33 - 1) 46 57 13 36 or 42 53 65 82 - Fax (33 - 1) 46 57 01 03 Note: Best E-mail addresses willl soon (Mid-November) be bertrand@eiffel.COM and eiffel!bertrand@uunet.UU.NET. Current one will still work.