[comp.org.usenix] BOF Announcement - Netnews User Interfaces

lear@NET.BIO.NET (Eliot Lear) (06/06/89)

		Second USENET SOFTWARE BOF
	     SON OF INFORMATION OVERLOAD, PART II

When:	    Wednesday, June 14, 1989, 8:30PM - 10:30PM
Room:	    Check the BOF board (yes, we have a big room)

Hosted by:  Erik Fair of Apple Computer, and yours truly.

USENET is generating so much information, of varying quality and
usefulness, that it is hard to find "the good stuff" for whatever
definition of "good stuff" you like.

The charter of this BOF is to talk about the information overload that
we're all suffering, and implementable software solutions (or just patches).

Topics to be discussed will include the following:

	o	Advances in software technology affecting this group.
		In specific, TMNN News 3.0.  The new transports have
		caused a bit of a delay.

	o	Progress made since January - Summary of
		news-interfaces discussion.

We especially invite implementors and perspective implementors to
attend our session.  Again, ideas are nice.  Implementations are
nicer.

dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US (David H. Brierley) (06/07/89)

In article <8906032109.AA13764@net.bio.net> fair@apple.com, lear@net.bio.net writes:
>
>We especially invite implementors and perspective implementors to
>attend our session.  Again, ideas are nice.  Implementations are
>nicer.

I was thinking of implementing a perspective but I had a real hard time
rounding up any prospective users for it.  :-)

Pardon me for being overly picky today, this just struck me as a humorous
tip of a frightening iceberg.  Don't they teach English in our schools
anymore?  With the use of computers becoming more prevalent in todays
society the proper use of English, or lack thereof, by computer
programmers is going to play an increasingly important role in the
education of our young people.  We are sending out a message that proper
use of English is not something to strive towards.  I'm not saying that I
am perfect or that everyone should be perfect and I don't mean to imply
that Erik or Elliot are particularly bad.  I just think that the proper
use of English, including proper spelling and making sure you are using
the correct word, is something that we all need to pay more attention to.
Would you want your children learning English grammar and spelling by
reading netnews?  How about by reading some of the technical manuals that
I have had the pleasure to read or the output of some of the programs I
have seen?  I think knot!  :-)
-- 
David H. Brierley
Home: dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US   {rayssd,xanth,lazlo,mirror}!galaxia!dave
Work: dhb@rayssd.ray.com           {sun,decuac,gatech,necntc,ukma}!rayssd!dhb

raymond@utpsych.toronto.edu (Raymond Shaw) (06/08/89)

In article <695@galaxia.Newport.RI.US> dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US (David H. Brierley) writes:
>
>Pardon me for being overly picky today, this just struck me as a humorous
>tip of a frightening iceberg.  Don't they teach English in our schools

but mixed metaphors are ok?

>anymore?  With the use of computers becoming more prevalent in todays

Isn't it "today's?"

>society the proper use of English, or lack thereof, by computer

"society," not just "society"

>programmers is going to play an increasingly important role in the
>education of our young people.  We are sending out a message that proper
>use of English is not something to strive towards.  I'm not saying that I

"toward which to strive"

>am perfect

God, I hope not!

>           or that everyone should be perfect and I don't mean to imply
>that Erik or Elliot are particularly bad.  I just think that the proper
>use of English, including proper spelling and making sure you are using
                                                           ^^^
>the correct word, is something that we all need to pay more attention to.
                                     ^^
1.  And I guess that consistency is completely irrelevant.
To whom are you addressing this sentence.  Don't you really mean to say:
" ... making sure that one uses ... that one needs to"  
or " ... making sure that we are ... " and so on?

2.  " ... is something to which we all need to pay more attention."
    (this is at least your second violation of ending sentences with
     a preposition).

>Would you want your children learning English grammar and spelling by
>reading netnews? 

Certainly not by reading your articles.  Give me a break.

>                  How about by reading some of the technical manuals that
>I have had the pleasure to read or the output of some of the programs I
>have seen?  I think knot!  :-)
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I, for one, am not amused.

-Ray Shaw
raymond@psych.toronto.edu

p.s. For those interested in contacting the first in this series to
     flame on spelling/grammar, I have included this person's signature
     below:
>David H. Brierley
>Home: dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US   {rayssd,xanth,lazlo,mirror}!galaxia!dave
>Work: dhb@rayssd.ray.com           {sun,decuac,gatech,necntc,ukma}!rayssd!dhb

dave@westmark.UUCP (Dave Levenson) (06/08/89)

In article <695@galaxia.Newport.RI.US>, dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US (David H. Brierley) writes:
...
> We are sending out a message that proper use of English is not
> something to strive towards.

Perhaps we ought to send out a message that the proper use of
English is something towards which we ought to strive?

-- 
Dave Levenson
Westmark, Inc.               dave@westmark.uu.net
Warren, NJ, USA              {uunet | rutgers | att}!westmark!dave
[The Man in the Mooney]      N5848Q

jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) (06/08/89)

dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US (David H. Brierley) writes:
>>Pardon me for being overly picky today, this just struck me as a humorous
>>tip of a frightening iceberg.  Don't they teach English in our schools

raymond@psych.toronto.edu (Raymond Shaw) writes:
>but mixed metaphors are ok?

And so on.  David posts a spelling and grammar flame, and Raymond
demonstrates that David himself is fallible as well.

Folks, there's a reason why spelling and grammar flames are discouraged
on Usenet.  By Murphy's law, any time you criticize someone's grammar
or spelling, you'll make at least one blooper yourself, and someone will
flame you.  And so on.  So if you must flame, please do it by mail.
-- 
-- Joe Buck	jbuck@epimass.epi.com, uunet!epimass.epi.com!jbuck

alan@servax0.essex.ac.uk (Stanier A) (06/09/89)

In article <3287@epimass.EPI.COM> jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) writes:
>Folks, there's a reason why spelling and grammar flames are discouraged
>on Usenet.  By Murphy's law, any time you criticize someone's grammar
>or spelling, you'll make at least one blooper yourself, and someone will
>flame you.  And so on.  So if you must flame, please do it by mail.

	Spoilsport.

	Don't you realize the pleasure to be had from watching
opinionated windbags making fools of themselves in public?

-- 
                              Alan  M  Stanier
email alan@uk.ac.sx    Essex University Computer Centre       If you do it
tel +44 206-872153        Wivenhoe Park, Colchester,        to excess, it's
FAX +44 206-860585          Essex CO4 3SQ, England           even more fun

karl@ficc.uu.net (karl lehenbauer) (06/09/89)

In article <8906032109.AA13764@net.bio.net>, lear@NET.BIO.NET (Eliot Lear) writes:
> We especially invite implementors and perspective implementors to
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> attend our session.

I guess these are people whose job is to help one develop an outlook...
-- 
-- uunet!ficc!karl	"Contemptuous lights flashed across the computer's
-- karl@ficc.uu.net	 console."  -- Hitchhiker's Guide

walker@ficc.uu.net (Walker Mangum) (06/09/89)

In article <4472@ficc.uu.net>, karl@ficc.uu.net (karl lehenbauer) writes:
| In article <8906032109.AA13764@net.bio.net>, lear@NET.BIO.NET (Eliot Lear) writes:
| > We especially invite implementors and perspective implementors to
| > attend our session.
| 
| I guess these are people whose job is to help one develop an outlook...

Yeah, sort of like a perspective developer.  You know, like, "you really
need to develop some perspective on the issue...."

-- 
Walker Mangum                                  |  Adytum, Incorporated
phone: (713) 333-1509                          |  1100 NASA Road One  
UUCP:  uunet!ficc!walker  (walker@ficc.uu.net) |  Houston, TX  77058
Disclaimer: $#!+ HAPPENS

prohaska%lapis@Sun.COM (J.R. Prohaska) (06/10/89)

I am always amazed at people's concern about sentences that end with
prepositions. It brings to mind something Churchill apparently once said:

	"This is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put."

Or, as Pirsig remarks, "Hundreds of itsy-bitsy rules for itsy-bitsy people."
Nonetheless, I see no reason to flame the original poster.  His sentiments are
certainly reasonable and should have offended no one.

Regards,
	J.R. Prohaska
	Sun Microsystems, Mountain View, California  (415) 336 2502
	internet:  prohaska@sun.com
	usenet:    {backbone}!sun!prohaska
	USnail:    Box 9022, Stanford, CA  94305

J.R.
Knowledge Systems Group, MS 12-40, x6-2502

diamond@diamond.csl.sony.junet (Norman Diamond) (06/12/89)

dave@galaxia.Newport.RI.US (David H. Brierley) writes:

>>>Pardon me for being overly picky today, this just struck me as a humorous
>>>tip of a frightening iceberg.  Don't they teach English in our schools

>raymond@psych.toronto.edu (Raymond Shaw) writes:

>>but mixed metaphors are ok?

In article <3287@epimass.EPI.COM> jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) writes:

>And so on.  David posts a spelling and grammar flame, and Raymond
>demonstrates that David himself is fallible as well.
>
>Folks, there's a reason why spelling and grammar flames are discouraged
>on Usenet.  By Murphy's law, any time you criticize someone's grammar
>or spelling, you'll make at least one blooper yourself, and someone will
>flame you.  And so on.  So if you must flame, please do it by mail.

This is generally true, but one of those flames really was appropriate.
When someone professes (at least by insinuation) to be a grammatical
expert but his posting is riddled with grammatical bugs, he kind of
deserves to be flamed.  It is like a poor programmer professing to
answer someone's question, when in fact his proposed solution is worse
than the original problem.  Yes even the experts are fallible, but one
should notice the relative frequency of the failures.

--
Norman Diamond, Sony Computer Science Lab (diamond%csl.sony.co.jp@relay.cs.net)
 The above opinions are my own.  However, if you see this at Waterloo, Stanford,
 or Anterior, then their administrators must have approved of these opinions.

lwk@caen.engin.umich.edu (Woody Kellum) (06/17/89)

I propose "newsnit" as the label for people who flame on spelling and
grammer, and - get this - ALL THOSE WHO FOLLOW UP to the flame!

In the town of Tonchi in western Japan, there lived 3 young Zen
monks. They decided to take a vow of silence for 3 months. 

All went well for a week.

One day Joe Newsnerd stumbled onto their favorite bulletin board
and sung the praises of MS-DOS Operating Program over Unix
( which he'd tried only once). 

"You blithering twit", replied the first monk, "how can you 
speak so assuredly of that which you know knot?"

Where upon the second monk followed up with the admonition
"You should not have responded to that fellow - now you have
broken your vow of silence that was to be for 3 months. And with
a spelling error at that!

Finally, the third monk (with superior smile) said
"I guess that I'm the only one who has not spoken"

(adapted from "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" by Paul Reps)
-- 
Woody Kellum   Internet:  lwk@caen.engin.umich.edu
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em