rcd@ico.ISC.COM (Dick Dunn) (06/20/89)
Jim Joyce had written... > >> The Usenix Staff will have info about where the suite is in the hotel which was careless at best...it should have been sufficient to say that there would be information (which Joyce would have posted himself) about the location of his suite, and therefore... In article <57038@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) had some fair cause to write: > >Get real. Why should the USENIX Staff publicize your > >commercial venture when you don't bother to buy a booth at their > >exhibition? i.e., USENIX has no reason to help a commercial venture that isn't giving them any money or benefit. But it's not clear to me that "buying a booth" makes any sense to a book- seller. They're obviously NOT in the same league as hardware and software vendors. What does a bookseller booth do? You can't sell books there (by the vendor-exhibit rules); all you can do is have sample copies around and tell people where to go to buy the books. You get to have two sets of sample copies and staff two separate locations...it probably costs several grand to do this, with no clear benefit. Might as well just ask for a charitable donation to USENIX. (no :-) I don't want to argue whether Joyce is good guy or bad guy, but I'd like to see a way for people to be able to buy/sell books of interest at USENIX. It's an obvious place where it's worthwhile to have a selection of books that might otherwise be hard to find. From my recent perspective, teaching a tutorial, it's very helpful to be able to tell people where they can get books related to the tutorial subject. They can buy them while the material is fresh in their minds; they can fondle the book to see if it contains what they need (instead of trying to guess from a two-paragraph hype in a publisher's brochure), etc. So is there some way to set up a bookselling arrangement, perhaps separate from the vendor exhibit, which answers Rick's objection? -- Dick Dunn UUCP: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 ...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (06/20/89)
In article <15866@vail.ICO.ISC.COM> rcd@ico.ISC.COM (Dick Dunn) writes: > You can't sell books there (by the vendor-exhibit rules); Is this a new rule? I can remember buying books at the trade show at earlier Usenixes. -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (06/20/89)
In article <15866@vail.ICO.ISC.COM> rcd@ico.ISC.COM (Dick Dunn) writes: >... it's not clear to me that "buying a booth" makes any sense to a book- >seller. They're obviously NOT in the same league as hardware and software >vendors. What does a bookseller booth do? You can't sell books there ... A bookseller can do what HCR did, for different reasons: buy a "virtual booth", paying the fee but not actually occupying any space on the show floor. This gets you a slot in the vendor directory, the right to put up signs in well-defined places, etc., without having to actually man a booth or observe the show-floor restrictions. Cucumber Books was at Usenix (in a suite in the Sheraton) and selling, without (as far as I know) any of Jim's undiplomatic tactics. I bought from them. -- You *can* understand sendmail, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology but it's not worth it. -Collyer| uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
williamt@athena1.Sun.COM (William A. Turnbow) (06/21/89)
In article <1989Jun20.162447.381@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >A bookseller can do what HCR did, for different reasons: buy a "virtual >booth", paying the fee but not actually occupying any space on the show >floor. > >Cucumber Books was at Usenix (in a suite in the Sheraton) and selling, >without (as far as I know) any of Jim's undiplomatic tactics. I bought >from them. -------------- Hmm. So you really think it is equitable to force someone into paying for a booth they can't use? Seems along the lines of forcing a street vendor to pay for building space he isn't going to use. Perhaps a separate/reduced fee for a directory listing would be a reasonable compromise for future conferences? Just as an aside, I would wonder about the business sense of a business who bought a building, or rented space that they never intended to use, but I supposed it has been justified in the past and will be in the future, that "it was necessary". -wat-
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (06/21/89)
In article <111266@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@sun.UUCP (William A. Turnbow) writes: > Hmm. So you really think it is equitable to force someone into >paying for a booth they can't use? ... If people want to be "officially part" of Usenix, I see no reason why they shouldn't pay at least a small fee for the privilege. -- NASA is to spaceflight as the | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology US government is to freedom. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
fyl@ssc.UUCP (Phil Hughes) (06/22/89)
In article <15866@vail.ICO.ISC.COM>, rcd@ico.ISC.COM (Dick Dunn) writes: > But it's not clear to me that "buying a booth" makes any sense to a book- > seller. They're obviously NOT in the same league as hardware and software > vendors. What does a bookseller booth do? You can't sell books there (by > the vendor-exhibit rules); all you can do is have sample copies around and > tell people where to go to buy the books. You get to have two sets of > sample copies and staff two separate locations...it probably costs several > grand to do this, with no clear benefit. We (SSC) have had the same problem. Although we do sell some software and offer training, our primary product is our series of pocket references and tutorials. The are definitely a "see it, I want it" item. We have had a booth at Usenix for quite a few years but have decided that we can't afford it because of this. (I do understand why you can't sell stuff but that doesn't help us.) On the other end, it is a service to members/attendees to be able to see, feel and even buy UNIX books. Possibly Usenix could either operate their own "bookstore" at or near the show to offer these types of publications or get someone to do it where Usenix gets a % of the take. -- Phil Hughes, SSC, Inc. P.O. Box 55549, Seattle, WA 98155 (206)FOR-UNIX amc-gw!ssc!fyl or uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fyl or attmail!ssc!fyl
kdb@intercon.uu.net (Kurt Baumann) (06/22/89)
How about just charging a fee for those who want to advertise in the show booklet? Our company, may not necessarily go to the show, but we might want to let everyone know about our new wizzer that dresses you in the morning. The value here is that someone who is selling books could pay for advertising space in the show booklet and let people know where they are going to be. Other companies could advertise about their new products or that they are going to have a hospitality suite, who might not want to run a booth. As an aside I have to let the show managers know that the new company offer that they made of (I think I have this right) $1500 for a 10x10 and furniture is VERY nice. That is a good way to get newer companies to show off. Just my two cents worth for keeping that going. -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation 46950 Community Plaza Phone: 703.450.7117 Suite 101-132 AppleLink: D1988 Sterling, VA 22170
williamt@athena1.Sun.COM (William A. Turnbow) (06/23/89)
In article <1989Jun21.162636.389@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <111266@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@sun.UUCP (William A. Turnbow) writes: >> Hmm. So you really think it is equitable to force someone into >>paying for a booth they can't use? ... > >If people want to be "officially part" of Usenix, I see no reason why they >shouldn't pay at least a small fee for the privilege. -------------- I believe that is what I said in the rest of the note that you cut off. That there should be a small fee for being officially listed in the Usenix directory, and a normal fee if you need floor space for a booth. -wat-
peter@ontmoh.UUCP (Peter Renzland) (06/23/89)
From article <1950@ssc.UUCP>, by fyl@ssc.UUCP (Phil Hughes): > [...] (I do understand why you can't sell stuff but that doesn't help us.) I don't understand why "you can't sell stuff". Could someone please explain? > On the other end, it is a service to members/attendees to be able to > see, feel and even buy UNIX books. Possibly Usenix could either operate > their own "bookstore" at or near the show to offer these types of > publications or get someone to do it where Usenix gets a % of the take. Perhaps Usenix might *pay* Jim Joyce a percentage of the take. After all, Every Unix book sold (and even seen) furthers the interest in, if not understanding of Unix. And we all know that bookstores (bookbooths) naturally attract those earnestly seeking (and willing to share) knowledge, if not truth, thus providing an important cultural venue. Those who don't already know may be pleasantly surprised that Jim Joyce has actually read the books and can discuss them intelligently. I do think that books, together with *knowledgeable* custodians, are an important resource at a conference or show. Perhaps it might make everyone happy if users could place mail orders at the booth. This would ease the load of the booksellers (only 1 display copy of each book), would allow attendees to travel home lighter, and might appease the "can't sell stuff" hardliners. -- Peter Renzland @ Ontario Ministry of Health 416/964-9141 peter@ontmoh.UUCP
mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) (06/23/89)
Perhaps someone from the Usenix office could explain why sales are not permitted on the floor of the Usenix vendor exhibition. I can think of a number of reasons both pro and con, but am interested in why it is not permitted at present. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that it be permitted without hearing the reasons why it is not at present, but it certainly would trivially solve the "bookstore" problem. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@tis.llnl.gov / uunet!tis.llnl.gov!mcb
rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin) (06/23/89)
>>A bookseller can do what HCR did, for different reasons: buy a "virtual >>booth", paying the fee but not actually occupying any space on the show >>floor. > Hmm. So you really think it is equitable to force someone into >paying for a booth they can't use? Seems along the lines of forcing >a street vendor to pay for building space he isn't going to use. Have you noticed that street vendors are generally required to purchase a business license, often pay fees to the city, must be approved for their selling area(s) and collect taxes? -- ________Robert J. Granvin________ INTERNET: rjg@sialis.mn.org ____National Computer Systems____ BITNET: rjg%sialis.mn.org@cs.umn.edu __National Information Services__ UUCP: ...amdahl!bungia!sialis!rjg "Exxon: Our gasoline contains no sea water"
eugene@eos.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (06/23/89)
In article <614553603.12740@ontmoh.UUCP> peter@ontmoh.UUCP (Peter Renzland) writes: >Perhaps Usenix might *pay* Jim Joyce a percentage of the take. I was going to stay quiet, but... Years ago, Jim Joyce had a special place at Unix User Group meetings. (pre-Usenix, maybe BU: Before Usenix) In contrast to the detailed/heavy kernel implementation talks, Jim would give light, restful (toward the end of conference) applications. He gave talks on things we all knew were computer applications, but were busy working out details. People looked foward to Jim's talks. In some ways, I think Jim deserves special dispensation for having stuck with it so long (as was once mentioned about a certain person in comp.lang.c). Another gross generalization from --eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@aurora.arc.nasa.gov resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers: "You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?" "If my mail does not reach you, please accept my apology." {ncar,decwrl,hplabs,uunet}!ames!eugene Live free or die.
williamt@athena1.Sun.COM (William A. Turnbow) (06/23/89)
In article <1604@sialis.mn.org> rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin) writes: >>>A bookseller can do what HCR did, for different reasons: buy a "virtual >>>booth", paying the fee but not actually occupying any space on the show >>>floor. > >> Hmm. So you really think it is equitable to force someone into >>paying for a booth they can't use? Seems along the lines of forcing >>a street vendor to pay for building space he isn't going to use. >> >> Perhaps a separate/reduced fee for a directory listing would be a >> reasonable compromise for future conferences? > >Have you noticed that street vendors are generally required to >purchase a business license, often pay fees to the city, must be >approved for their selling area(s) and collect taxes? -------------- Yes, that was suggested as shown above. But as was also mentioned above, those street vendors don't have to purchase building space that they are not going to be allowed to or cannot use. -wat-
rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) (06/24/89)
Would you object to a street vendor claiming affiliation with your group? How about if that street vendor came into your groups meeting space and started hustling your attendees? Its not the sales of the books that is the issue. The issue is the sleazy way the sales are done. --rick
rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin) (06/24/89)
>>> Hmm. So you really think it is equitable to force someone into >>>paying for a booth they can't use? Seems along the lines of forcing >>>a street vendor to pay for building space he isn't going to use. >> >>Have you noticed that street vendors are generally required to >>purchase a business license, often pay fees to the city, must be >>approved for their selling area(s) and collect taxes? >-------------- > > Yes, that was suggested as shown above. But as was also mentioned >above, those street vendors don't have to purchase building space that >they are not going to be allowed to or cannot use. Putting nit-picky wording aside, I don't see the comparison. A street vendor, for the right to use the cities property to sell his product, pays the city a fee for a business license and license to operate in a specific area (or part of a sidewalk). For this license, the city effectively sanctions the business. The city also collects taxes from the vendor, and may also collect other fees associated with the _use_ of city property for the business, especially if it includes utilities. What seems to be discussed here, is that Jim Joyce is renting a room where they will sell products at the Usenix conference, and at the same time expects the Usenix staff to support them. The only people that "profit" from this are the hotel (for the room rental) and the bookstore (for the sales). Usenix does not even see the customary useage fee. It is proper behavior to request, and pay for (if necessary) a "license to operate" at a conference, just as it is to apply for a similar license to operate on a street corner. If the term "paying for a booth they can't use" was interpreted a little more broadly, you'd realize that Usenix probably is not recommending that they buy a booth on the floor and then have some empty tables sitting there. Rather, it seems to be a fair practice to compensate Usenix for the priviledge of vendoring or selling wares at a Usenix sponsored event. This does not translate into "purchase building space that they are not going to be allowed to or cannot use." Usenix seems to have been much more tolerant of this practice than anyone else that I can think of. Good or bad depends on your point of view (and how either practice affects the organization or the conference). The real question isn't the esoteric little details, but whether an organization should attend a conference and vendor/sell wares without compensation to the sponsoring organization, while other organizations do make that compensation. That will end up putting a bad taste in everyone's mouth. -- ________Robert J. Granvin________ INTERNET: rjg@sialis.mn.org ____National Computer Systems____ BITNET: rjg%sialis.mn.org@cs.umn.edu __National Information Services__ UUCP: ...amdahl!bungia!sialis!rjg "I'll just go bang my head on a wall & figure out why I abuse myself so much"
mo@prisma (06/27/89)
Sales on the exhibition floor are expressly prohibited by the IRS in the statutes governing our not-for-profit status. Our attorney insists the laws are quite explicit and that the IRS is quite diligent in their enforcement, and such things get particular scrutiny during the periodic review of not-for-profit status. -Mike O'Dell Member USENIX BOD
mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) (07/01/89)
In article <22900004@prisma> mo@prisma (Mike O'Dell) writes: > Sales on the exhibition floor are expressly prohibited by the > IRS in the statutes governing our not-for-profit status. > Our attorney insists the laws are quite explicit and that the IRS is > quite diligent in their enforcement, and such things get particular > scrutiny during the periodic review of not-for-profit status. I find this rather curious. Would it be possible to provide a reference to the IRC or IRS regulations on this, or perhaps post the attorney's opinion? A large number of nonprofit organizations sponsor events in which a sale is held incidental to other activities, for example science fiction/fantasy and comics conventions where there are dealers' rooms with retail sales. Churches, schools, and service organizations also commonly sponsor sales. Even if there was such a restriction applying to Usenix, the solution might be as trivial as setting up a separate corporation that makes an agreement with the site hotel and sponsors the exhibition. I think sales would be a good idea at Usenix exhibitions, since exhibitors would be permitted to market directly to participants; attendees would be able to obtain items like software, boards, or books on the spot, and the Association could undoubtedly raise the price for exhibtion space, to its (and our!) benefit. (And Jim Joyce could have his bookstore on the floor with nobody to cry "foul!") -- Michael C. Berch Member of the California Bar and Usenix Individual Member mcb@tis.llnl.gov / uunet!tis.llnl.gov!mcb
david@infopro.UUCP (David Fiedler) (07/02/89)
From article <270@ncis.tis.llnl.gov>, by mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch): > In article <22900004@prisma> mo@prisma (Mike O'Dell) writes: >> Sales on the exhibition floor are expressly prohibited by the >> IRS in the statutes governing our not-for-profit status. >> Our attorney insists the laws are quite explicit and that the IRS is >> quite diligent in their enforcement, and such things get particular >> scrutiny during the periodic review of not-for-profit status. > > A large number of nonprofit organizations sponsor events in which > a sale is held incidental to other activities, for example science > fiction/fantasy and comics conventions where there are dealers' > rooms with retail sales. Churches, schools, and service organizations > also commonly sponsor sales. My reading of the above causes me to infer that Usenix is indeed not just a simple "non-profit" organization, but also a 501(c)3 educational organization with special tax privileges as well. However, a note in "login" specifies that it is simply a not-for-profit organization incorporated in Delaware. Could someone explain what the actual status is, since the ramifications are quite different? I have run a simple (i.e. not 501(c)3) not-for-profit corporation in New York, and no sales whatsoever were prohibited by New York. The IRS couldn't care less, as long as we paid our taxes on any profits we made (which were none). It occurs to me that there would be something a bit strange in allowing a 501(c)3 organization to run a trade show exhibit, where they charge exhibitors for floor space at rates close to those of commercial, profit-making companies, thereby having the government subsidize what is essentially competition to these commercial firms. There is a flap going on now, in fact, about university media departments bidding on commercial video productions for the same reason. Note that I am not flaming Usenix!! I love Usenix and have supported its activities in various ways for many years. I am just wondering what the status is. I am especially wondering how any set of rules (even from the IRS :-) can allow an organization to run a trade exhibit, (where people are there for the express purpose of seeing hardware and software with the possible intent of purchase) and not allow them to actually make purchases. If the organization itself is allowed to make money by renting the space, what does that possibly have to do with exhibitors selling products, since the organization doesn't get a "cut" of the money? /usr/group runs UniForum, they allow their exhibitors to sell products on the floor, and they are supposedly also a non-profit organization. I wonder what the difference is. -- David Fiedler {ames,attmail,hoptoad,pyramid}!infopro!david USMail: InfoPro Systems, PO Box 220, Rescue CA 95672 Phone: 916/677-5870 "Please, Captain...not in front of the Klingons!"
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (07/02/89)
In article <270@ncis.tis.llnl.gov> mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: >> Sales on the exhibition floor are expressly prohibited by the >> IRS in the statutes governing our not-for-profit status. >> Our attorney insists the laws are quite explicit... > >A large number of nonprofit organizations sponsor events in which >a sale is held incidental to other activities, for example science >fiction/fantasy and comics conventions where there are dealers' >rooms with retail sales... As I understand it, there are several (many?) slightly-differing flavors of nonprofit organization; the rules differ. (I too would be curious to know where the difference comes, but I am not surprised that there is one.) -- NASA is to spaceflight as the | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology US government is to freedom. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
mlindsey@x102c.harris-atd.com (Lindsey MS 04396) (07/03/89)
In article <270@ncis.tis.llnl.gov> mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: >In article <22900004@prisma> mo@prisma (Mike O'Dell) writes: >> Sales on the exhibition floor are expressly prohibited by the >> IRS in the statutes governing our not-for-profit status. >> Our attorney insists the laws are quite explicit and that the IRS is >> quite diligent in their enforcement, and such things get particular >> scrutiny during the periodic review of not-for-profit status. > >A large number of nonprofit organizations sponsor events in which >a sale is held incidental to other activities ... I haven't been to a DECUS conference for a couple of years, but they used to have a bookstore on the exhibition floor. I remember buying a copy of "Kermit: A File Transfer Protocol" at the May 87 DECUS in Nashville, Tennessee. Maybe someone could ask DECUS for more information. If "religious" organizations can run bingo operations and still retain their tax-exempt status, then surely someone can sell a few books at USENIX. "The only difference between a madman and myself is that I am not mad" S. Dali "If the shoe fits, buy it!" Imelda Marcos. Steve Lindsey |-) uunet!x102a!mlindsey (407) 727-5893 :-) mlindsey@x102a.harris-atd.com
bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (07/03/89)
>>A large number of nonprofit organizations sponsor events in which >>a sale is held incidental to other activities ... > > >I haven't been to a DECUS conference for a couple of years, but they used to >have a bookstore on the exhibition floor. I remember buying a copy of "Kermit: >A File Transfer Protocol" at the May 87 DECUS in Nashville, Tennessee. Maybe >someone could ask DECUS for more information. Is DECUS of the same not-for-profit/tax-exempt status as USENIX? I don't think so. Of course we are now about to gore ourselves on the various not-for-profit/tax-exempt permutations, but I don't believe DECUS claims any of these things (nor could they under federal law, if they serve only one vendor they are barred from this status, Prime User's Group vs. Someone, I forget the exact precedent. USENIX, not being affiliated with a specific vendor is of course a different case.) Now, maybe they can be not-for-profit but not tax-exempt, lord knows, ask a tax lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the cases are not directly comparable so this example may not be useful. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die, Purveyors to the Trade 1330 Beacon Street, Brookline, MA 02146, (617) 739-0202 Internet: bzs@skuld.std.com UUCP: encore!xylogics!skuld!bzs or uunet!skuld!bzs
blarson@basil.usc.edu (bob larson) (07/04/89)
In article <34181@bu-cs.BU.EDU> bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) writes: >Of course we are now about to gore ourselves on the various >not-for-profit/tax-exempt permutations, but I don't believe DECUS >claims any of these things (nor could they under federal law, if they >serve only one vendor they are barred from this status, Prime User's >Group vs. Someone, I forget the exact precedent. My understanding is that DECUS gives third-party vendors a more-or-less equal footing with DEC. NPUG has only one vendor with an exibit area as part of the converence. (Prime.) To get third party info, you must go to the BITS conference. (Located in the same city durring the same week as NPUG.) My understanding is that this was done under pressure from Prime, who threatened not to participate if third parties were given an equal chance. (They have done so to some local users groups, but their policy isn't consistant.) -- Bob Larson Arpa: blarson@basil.usc.edu Uucp: {uunet,cit-vax}!usc!basil!blarson Prime mailing list: info-prime-request%ais1@ecla.usc.edu usc!ais1!info-prime-request
ed@mtxinu.COM (Ed Gould) (07/06/89)
>My understanding is that DECUS gives third-party vendors a more-or-less >equal footing with DEC. Not even close. There are no third-party exhibits in the DEC show at DECUS (except for occasional third-party products that DEC is marketing from within their exhibit). A separate organization runs a show called DEXPO that (in addition to being held separately) is held in close proximity to, and at the same time as, DECUS. DECUS has a "non-commercialization" policy that prohibits sales pitches at sessions. This policy has been only loosely applied to DEC (who get to make new product announcements and the like). It is applied to users, who can make only legitimate technical presentations. I don't know the tax status of DECUS, but I doubt that they are tax exempt. -- Ed Gould mt Xinu, 2560 Ninth St., Berkeley, CA 94710 USA ed@mtxinu.COM +1 415 644 0146 "I'll fight them as a woman, not a lady. I'll fight them as an engineer."