elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (12/08/87)
[excerpted from an AP news article in the local newspaper:] An annual survey found that nationwide only 362 U.S. citizens got doctorates in math during the 1986-1987 school year. The decline in graduate researchers is blamed in large part on a decades-old shortage of qualified teachers at the elementary and secondary level. "There's always been a finite pool of people with mathematical and if they aren't interested before they enter high school they are not going to take enough math to have the option of exploring the field by the time they get to college. Somepeople will go into mathematics whatever the odds and obstacles. But they don't tend to be the kind of people who become good teachers. And we are losing anyone who can do anything else." It goes on to mention that the total number of math doctorates has been steadily declining for the past 15 years. Commentary: As a field that derives much of its substance from the mathematical arts, CS education is in big trouble if, 20 years from now, we cannot find people with the knowledge to teach CS students the discrete mathematics etc. that are so important for CS students to know. -- Eric Lee Green elg@killer.UUCP Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Lafayette, LA 70509 "There's someone in my head, but it's not me...." -PF
reggie@pdnbah.UUCP (George Leach) (12/09/87)
In article <2376@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >[excerpted from an AP news article in the local newspaper:] >An annual survey found that nationwide only 362 U.S. citizens got doctorates >in math during the 1986-1987 school year. Has anyone taken a look at trends in Math and EE doctorates relative to CS doctorates? About twenty years ago there were no CS departments and therefore no CS PhD's. Over the years there has been an increase in the number of departments granting PhD's in Computer Science. This fact alone would account for declines in other fields that are related to CS. George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation {gatech,rutgers,attmail}!codas!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 Largo, FL 34649-2826
lamaster@ames.arpa (Hugh LaMaster) (12/10/87)
In article <2376@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >[excerpted from an AP news article in the local newspaper:] > >An annual survey found that nationwide only 362 U.S. citizens got doctorates >in math during the 1986-1987 school year. The decline in graduate researchers >is blamed in large part on a decades-old shortage of qualified teachers at the >elementary and secondary level. Far be it from me to discourage anyone from getting a PhD in Mathematics. However, these surveys never tell you how many openings per year there really are. We have been hearing about doctor shortages, Mathematician shortages, Engineer shortages, programmer shortages, etc. for a long time. However, I have never seen a long term shortage in any technical field, despite what the papers say. The best advice I could give would be to study what you love, but be prepared to work for money when you get through, and be prepared to change careers if necessary. There is always a shortage of the "right people" in any field, but for the rest of us, flexibility is a requirement..
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (12/11/87)
in article <1878@pdn.UUCP>, reggie@pdnbah.UUCP (George Leach) says: > In article <2376@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >>[excerpted from an AP news article in the local newspaper:] > >>An annual survey found that nationwide only 362 U.S. citizens got doctorates >>in math during the 1986-1987 school year. > > Has anyone taken a look at trends in Math and EE doctorates relative to > CS doctorates? About twenty years ago there were no CS departments and > therefore no CS PhD's. Over the years there has been an increase in the > number of departments granting PhD's in Computer Science. This fact alone > would account for declines in other fields that are related to CS. Have you looked at the reports on production of CS majors lately? I don't recall the exact numbers (which I saw in an issue of IEEE Computer while searching for the article on the AMD29000), but they were quite disappointing for the MS and, especially, the PhD level. Apparently all us folks get a BS and then ride out upon the winds to gain our fame and fortune :-). Maybe some of these underpaid underemployed BS's will come back for an advanced degree, but it looks pretty doubtful right now. For one thing, someone capable of gaining a MS or PhD isn't very likely to be either underpaid or underemployed. -- Eric Lee Green elg@usl.CSNET Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Lafayette, LA 70509 "There's someone in my head, but it's not me...." -PF
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (12/14/87)
Here's a couple of other tidbits, dredged from education journals: "Recently, I had the opportunity to take a long, careful look at the basal texts in elementary school mathematics. The books, save for graphics and phtos, could easily have been published a century ago. Mathematically and psychologically barren, such books prepare children for a world that has long ceased to be." -- Thomas C. O'Brien, "Five Essays on Computers in Education" Phi Delta Kappan, Oct 1983, pp 110-112 "At some point we may be forced to reject the 'filling station' concept of learning." -- Robert C. Snider, "Terminal Time in the Classroom", PDK OCT 1983 "...researchers.. conclude that many mathematics programs focus too much on the development of routine computation skills and too little on understanding mathematical concepts." "There is increasing evidence that precollege work in mathematics and science fails to integrate low-level skills and high-level understanding, so that much of the material that is studied is neither remembered nor understood." Thomas L. Good, "Increasing Teachers' Understanding of Mathematical Ideas", PDK June 1987, p778 -- Eric Lee Green elg@usl.CSNET Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Lafayette, LA 70509 "There's someone in my head, but it's not me...." -PF
steve@hubcap.UUCP ("Steve" Stevenson) (12/15/87)
Take heart. NSF has finally concluded the same thing, at least as far as calculus is concerned. Being a computationalist (read finitist) I still see a drastic need to give the math curricula a boost in discrete and computational math as well. Comments? -- Steve (really "D. E.") Stevenson steve@hubcap.clemson.edu Department of Computer Science, (803)656-5880.mabell Clemson University, Clemson, SC 29634-1906
varol@cwi.nl (Varol Akman) (12/16/87)
In article <2424@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: > >Have you looked at the reports on production of CS majors lately? I don't >recall the exact numbers (which I saw in an issue of IEEE Computer while >searching for the article on the AMD29000), but they were quite disappointing >for the MS and, especially, the PhD level. Apparently all us folks get a BS >and then ride out upon the winds to gain our fame and fortune :-). Maybe some >of these underpaid underemployed BS's will come back for an advanced degree, >but it looks pretty doubtful right now. For one thing, someone capable of >gaining a MS or PhD isn't very likely to be either underpaid or >underemployed. > I've come to believe that degrees aren't that important. True, a PhD has more research potential than an BSc but then again this is more or less a rule of thumb. A lot researchers without advanced degrees come up with important, even revolutionary, results. I explain their success with an appeal to their intelligence, hard work, experience, etc. For example, various advanced products are created in companies which employ many more BSc's than PhDs. Although it is true that research divisions of these companies have many PhDs, it is probably not true to assert that these solely are the people who do the major inventions or innovations. I believe that one cannot expect to have a huge number of PhD's without really proving that they are the ones (and the only ones) who are creating our ``knowledge.'' Even if this turns out to be the case, so what? Should all industrialists be as successful as Ford? Should all physicists be as good as Weinberg? The examples can be multiplied. Basically, I'm trying to say that a lot of useful work can be done without being perfect. One last thing ... A capitalist society is based on the great law of economic supply & demand. When there is enough demand, there'll be a lot of people who would like to study for an advanced degree. Demand in the sense that the employers will be willing to give e.g. a lot of money, respect, responsibility, what have you. Until then only people who are really motivated, idealistic, etc. will go for an advanced degree but I don't see anything wrong with that. -Varol Akman CWI, Amsterdam
g-mccann@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Lester I. McCann) (12/17/87)
In article <147@piring.cwi.nl>, varol@cwi.nl (Varol Akman) writes: > I've come to believe that degrees aren't that important. True, a PhD > has more research potential than an BSc but then again this is more or > less a rule of thumb. A lot researchers without advanced degrees > come up with important, even revolutionary, results. I explain their > success with an appeal to their intelligence, hard work, experience, etc. > For example, various advanced products are created in companies which > employ many more BSc's than PhDs. Although it is true that research > divisions of these companies have many PhDs, it is probably not true > to assert that these solely are the people who do the major inventions or > innovations. > > -Varol Akman > CWI, Amsterdam Rats! I sent a reply to Varol, intending it to be a follow-up. I *hate* it when that happens! I can't say that I agree with this argument in all cases. If you wish to teach at the college level, you will have a hard time getting hired at all and have an even harder time getting tenure if you "only" have a Master's. I can understand needing to have an all-PhD faculty at a research school, but I don't see that it makes that much difference at a "teaching" school, where the emphasis is supposedly on teaching and not research. In that environment, it seems to me they'd be better off hiring good instructors, rather than higher degrees. (I think we all agree that many PhDs are not good instructors.) I speak from a small amount of experience. I got my BS at a small university that hired MSs as temporary faculty until they could hire people with PhDs. One instructor in particular was a great lecturer, but he wasn't granted tenure simply because he didn't have an interest in getting a PhD. That didn't make any sense to me then, and it still doesn't today. It make me wonder what their priorities really are. Lester McCann mccann@primost.cs.wisc.edu
lamaster@ames.arpa (Hugh LaMaster) (12/17/87)
In article <1245@gumby.cs.wisc.edu> g-mccann@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Lester I. McCann) writes: > >I can't say that I agree with this argument in all cases. If you wish to >teach at the college level, you will have a hard time getting hired at all >and have an even harder time getting tenure if you "only" have a Master's. >I can understand needing to have an all-PhD faculty at a research school, >but I don't see that it makes that much difference at a "teaching" school, The reason that most universities demand all PhD faculty is that they can - there are still many more PhD's in most fields that want to teach and do research than there are positions available. Computer Science would appear to be a (temporary) exception to this rule - an opportunity for those who want to teach CS at a university. Historically, it has rarely been the case that there have been persistent PhD shortages in any University teaching/ research field. It is simply a question of supply and demand. There are a lot more people capable of, and desiring to do, teaching and research out there than there are positions out there. For the same reasons, it is likely that salaries in universities will persist in lagging behind industry, as historically they usually have.
jpdres10@usl-pc.UUCP (Green Eric Lee) (12/20/87)
Keywords: Expires: Sender: Reply-To: Followup-To: In message <147@piring.cwi.nl>, varol@cwi.nl (Varol Akman) says: >In article <2424@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >>for the MS and, especially, the PhD level. Apparently all us folks get a BS >>and then ride out upon the winds to gain our fame and fortune :-). Maybe some >>of these underpaid underemployed BS's will come back for an advanced degree, >>but it looks pretty doubtful right now. For one thing, someone capable of >>gaining a MS or PhD isn't very likely to be either underpaid or >>underemployed. >> >One last thing ... A capitalist society is based on the great law >of economic supply & demand. When there is enough demand, there'll be a lot >of people who would like to study for an advanced degree. Demand >in the sense that the employers will be willing to give e.g. a lot >of money, respect, responsibility, what have you. Until then only people who are Well, considering that a person with a PhD/CS can get over $50K/year quite easily, while the numbers for BS/CS hover around 35K/year, it would seem that there would be more people going for PhDs than there is. The problem is that pure capitalism does not exist. A little fly in the ointment called "human nature" intervenes. Most folks who've just finished 4 years of college feel like they're on top of the world, that they can do everything, the whole world's out there to conquer, and why wait for a lousy PhD? As for the value of a PhD: Basically, it signifies that the person is an expert in his particular area. Where that is most significant is in teaching... I really wouldn't want be at a school with a BS/CS program where the classes are mostly taught by grad students and other people who are at the BS level. Yet, because of a variety of factors, including the limited number of people recieving PhD's, it's becoming rarer and rarer for a typical BS student at a lower-tier college or university to see a true-to-life PhD. Especially considering that a college or university must spend $50k-70k to get top-notch people (unless they're in a major computer-industry area, where the professor is expected to supplement his/her salary by consulting). -- Eric Green elg@usl.CSNET P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!killer!elg, {ut-sally,killer}!usl!elg "what exactly is a dream... and what exactly is a joke?" -- Syd Barrett
reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) (12/22/87)
In article <516@usl-pc.UUCP> writes: >Well, considering that a person with a PhD/CS can get over $50K/year >quite easily, while the numbers for BS/CS hover around 35K/year, it >would seem that there would be more people going for PhDs than there >is. The problem is that pure capitalism does not exist. A little fly >in the ointment called "human nature" intervenes. Most folks who've >just finished 4 years of college feel like they're on top of the >world, that they can do everything, the whole world's out there to >conquer, and why wait for a lousy PhD? First, thinking along the lines of pure capitalism: How long will it take the holder of a BS/CS to attain a salary of $50K/year after starting at an entry level of $35K/year? Now compair that with how many years it will take to earn a PhD. Well now, of course you can say that by the time you get a PhD the starting salary for one will have risen as well. But the person with the BS/CS will be pulling in $35K/year and then some as s/he get raises each year (assuming of course that the company is successful and engages in such practices). And the person who is earning a PhD will be skimping along until graduation day comes. The reasons that one pursues a PhD are not economic. You have to have deeper motives than that or you would not be able to endure the stress and economic hardship it takes to do so! In fact, economics is what keeps me from attempting to earn one! With a family to support I just can not afford to go back to school full time. And going part time, from what I have been told, is next to impossible. >As for the value of a PhD: Basically, it signifies that the person is >an expert in his particular area. Where that is most significant is in >teaching... I really wouldn't want be at a school with a BS/CS program >where the classes are mostly taught by grad students and other people >who are at the BS level. Yet, because of a variety of factors, >including the limited number of people recieving PhD's, it's becoming >rarer and rarer for a typical BS student at a lower-tier college or >university to see a true-to-life PhD. Isn't that the truth! When I was an undergraduate, every single full time faculty member held a PhD. Virtually *NO* TA's taught. When I was working on my MS (part time) I go involved by teaching in the evenings. The reason was that the CS department had become so large that they were useing *20* TA's to teach undergraduate courses!!!! I know that the "Good Olde Days" were not really all that good and that we can not change the sudden popularity of a CS education. However, something must be done to ensure that the quality of the students being produced does not fall below certain standards due to an overburdened teaching staff! -- George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation {gatech,rutgers,attmail}!codas!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 Largo, FL 34649-2826