gh@ai.toronto.edu (Graeme Hirst) (07/26/88)
In article <2935@utastro.UUCP> nather@utastro.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >But who is cheated? Who is the "victim" of this "crime?" Only the >students who come to a university, pay to get an "education," and >leave as ignorant as when they arrived. I think this is stupid, but >I can't find it heinous. If a student graduates with an undeserved A, and uses this grade to get a job, then the following people are victims: (1) The student with a genuine but lower grade, who might otherwise have got the job. (2) The employer, who will pay this person a year's salary or more before finally firing him or her. (3) Future applicants from the same university, whom the employer will now presume to be badly educated. As long as college grades are used by others as a measure of competence, then students who cheat to raise their grades are defrauding anyone, such as a future employer, to whom they show those grades, and this is the main reason why they cheat in the first place.
lamaster@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Hugh LaMaster) (07/27/88)
In article <88Jul26.135123edt.776@neat.ai.toronto.edu> gh@ai.toronto.edu (Graeme Hirst) writes: >In article <2935@utastro.UUCP> nather@utastro.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >>But who is cheated? Who is the "victim" of this "crime?" Only the >job, then the following people are victims: >(1) The student with a genuine but lower grade, who might otherwise have > got the job. >(2) The employer, who will pay this person a year's salary or more before > finally firing him or her. >(3) Future applicants from the same university, whom the employer will > now presume to be badly educated. >As long as college grades are used by others as a measure of competence, >then students who cheat to raise their grades are defrauding anyone, such >as a future employer, to whom they show those grades, and this is the >main reason why they cheat in the first place. I agree with with Graeme Hirst completely: Anyone who undertakes the responsibility of handing out grades also undertakes the responsibility of handing them out fairly. And anyone who laughs off the problem of cheating is directly causing injury to honest students. And teaching another lesson: "You had better cheat, because it is a requirement for success in my class." I have to observe, however, that Universities with large, impersonal classes are asking for trouble unless they go to extra lengths to prevent cheating. I think the solution is to have classes small enough and professors interested enough that students and professors develop a personal relationship during classes. (I know, dream on ...). -- Hugh LaMaster, m/s 233-9, UUCP ames!lamaster NASA Ames Research Center ARPA lamaster@ames.arc.nasa.gov Moffett Field, CA 94035 Phone: (415)694-6117
reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) (07/29/88)
In article <12406@ames.arc.nasa.gov> lamaster@ames.arc.nasa.gov.UUCP (Hugh LaMaster) writes: >In article <88Jul26.135123edt.776@neat.ai.toronto.edu> gh@ai.toronto.edu (Graeme Hirst) writes: >>In article <2935@utastro.UUCP> nather@utastro.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >>>But who is cheated? Who is the "victim" of this "crime?" >>(1) The student with a genuine but lower grade, who might otherwise have >> got the job. How about the person with the genuine grade? While it is true that the genuine grade will show up in the fact that the person probably learned something in the procees, their grade is still somewhat tarnished by the fact that it was also received by someone who did not deserve it. >>(2) The employer, who will pay this person a year's salary or more before >> finally firing him or her. That is assuming the person is found out and that the company does indeed fire that person. Some companies in this day and age of law suits are rather reluctant to fire employees for these reasons. I think by now employers realize that a degree and good grades don't mean all that much. Not having good grades may mean something. That is why there is an interview process. Even still there are people who are good interview takers, just like some people are good test takers. There are even people who can put on a good appearance on the job and "cheat" the company. >>(3) Future applicants from the same university, whom the employer will >> now presume to be badly educated. And past graduates who see their degree devaluated as well. Just like alumni are concerned that the football team is not the powerhouse it once was, some are also concerned who see a program slip into mediocrity. >I agree with with Graeme Hirst completely: Anyone who undertakes the >responsibility of handing out grades also undertakes the responsibility >of handing them out fairly. And anyone who laughs off the problem of >cheating is directly causing injury to honest students. And teaching >another lesson: "You had better cheat, because it is a requirement for >success in my class." I taught at the same university that I attended both as an undergrad and a graduate student. I therefore had a personal interest in stopping cheaters. The class sizes were never more than 30, so it was feasible for me to attempt to catch cheating. I can see that with the increase in enrollment in CS departments that we experienced in the early to middle part of this decade this became more difficult. Many of the early undergrad courses are taught by an army of TAs, who barely know what they are teaching. In many cases they probably are not as concerned about preventing cheating as they are with earning money so they can continue their own education. I have also seen people teaching whose main interest is research and not teaching. They may not be so concerned as well. Only when the teacher is personally involved in the course at every level, including grading papers, tests and assignments, can some measure of control be placed on this problem. Many times a TA will be friends with those in the class that they are either teaching or grading papers for. The temptation to aid friends is too great in this situation. The bottom line is that in order to stop cheating, all those in the process must be concerned and must take action. If an employer finds that a graduate is not up to snuff, then this should be reported back to the university. Teachers and students must be more concerned about cheating. I think most students view cheating as "I don't cheat, but I don't mind that others do". Students who don't cheat should be concerned. Another problem I see is in the attitude of those who are caught cheating. I have actually been requested by a cheater to overlook the fact that I caught him cheating! The nerve of this person! He was not even a bit sorry about it. He was only sorry that he was caught. There is no concern for learning, only for achieving the grade. These types of attitudes are ingrained long before students reach the university level. It is indicative of a basic problem in our society today. And as such it needs to be addressed in the home, on the job and at school. -- George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation ..!uunet!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 NOTE: codas<--->pdn will be gone soon Largo, FL 34649-2826