wlieberm@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (William Lieberman) (07/29/88)
Last night on Ted Koppel (ABC Nightline TV) they discussed a dismaying
result of a survey of Americans (I don't know how scientific the
survey was- I hope it was not scientific, because if it was, and the results
really represent the frequency of the ignorance discussed, it is much
more than dismaying - it is positively depressing).
According to the survey (I think it was carried out under the auspices of
the National Geographical Society - which, yes, has a vested interest - but
so should we all), 75% of Americans (I'm sure they excluded children)
cannot point roughly to the Persian Gulf on an unmarked map. One woman
(on videotape) pointed to Northwest AFRICA! (Or was she trying to point
out Vietnam?!!!) 5% of Americans do NOT know that Washington, D.C. is the
capital of the the U.S. Something like 45% think that when it is summertime
in the US, it is NOT wintertime in Australia!!
One of my favorites. A huge percentage of Americans CANNOT name even ONE
member country of NATO. About half (or something like that) think
the USSR is a member! I know, for example, that Canadians are usually
less than enamored when their American friends seem to know so little about
Canada. (For example, how many Americans can name ONE Canadian politician,
living or dead? Or how many know the difference between the words
'province' and 'providence'? Is Quebec a city, a province, or a providence,
or some combination? (That really gets 'em.) Americans know (and care) as much
about Canadian provinces as Canadians know (and care) about Mexican states.
But what Canadians have always failed to appreciate, from my experience, is
that, never mind any facts of Canada - a huge proportion of Americans couldn't
tell you what county (not country) they live in - or who their congressional
representative is. That is, a lot of foreigners think Americans are
simply ignorant about their particular foreign country, when the truth is
that Americans are generally ignorant (or a larger percentage than
we would have believed) about their OWN country, the USA. From a previous
statistic, one-third of CHICAGO school children get the following
question wrong: Chicago is a:
1. City
2. State
3. Country
THAT is DISMAYING. Another one: a huge percentage (1/3 or 1/2???) of
just-graduated TEACHERS from a FLORIDA teacher's college could not
find FLORIDA on a map of the USA! I find myself as I keyboard in
these facts that seem to be pouring out of my rough-shocked memory feeling
like I should crawl into a hole. What keeps me not totally in a quitting
mood is that this is so obviously easy to overcome. The main thing
is that our society should INSIST on setting and maintaining STANDARDS
of KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS.
Is it not true that in most parts of our country, a person can, (with
a lot of skill (proving they're not skill-less) manage to EVADE just about
all courses or subjects that appear to provide the least challenge to
thought. ("Well, I'll take typing in my senior year of high school, and
maybe basketball coaching human resources- that'll get me the high school
diploma my parents keep yelling at me about."
Is is not a near-fact, that if into a kindergarten in the USA today, you
place a 50-pound sack of potatoes in the back of the room, in 13 years
some school district will pin a high-school diploma to that sack of
potatoes? No one seems to have the guts to require children to learn
where there is resistance to learning. Children are naturally curious,
and excellent challenge is what they probably thirst for more than
anything else. Is it not a fact, that in the Graduate Record Exminations
(the GRE's), as a group, prospective teachers, place, ANNUALLY, second
to the BOTTOM in scores, (and always way below the third worst group?)
Teachers are ahead, of all the academic disciplines, ONLY of students going
into religious training!
Start there with the standards for the teaching profession- new math, it is
felt, failed because the TEACHERS were not capable of scoping its value,
and could not convey what the mathematicians were justly trying to give
to the children, right?
Second (not necessarily in order of importance)- provide the courage of the
lion to school principals and district administrators who currently are
a bunch (not universally true) of obsequious politically-scared lackeys,
bowing and backing away from any parent who has even the stupidest complaint.
They should say to some of these parents, "Look, you better have your kid
here at the front door of the school at 8:30 am sharp, with a clean face, and
rested and fed. We'll take it from there." And, during the day, or at the end
of the day, "Look, child, you don't know this stuff at all - you and I are
not leaving here tonight until I think you know this stuff cold. Now sit
down, open that book, and start answering my questions. No one will bother
us - and when you leave here tonight, you're going to feel great, and you can
explain all this stuff to your friends."
Also, all school children should be disarmed at the school house
door - no guns, knives, grenades, AK-47 assault rifles, or atom bombs,
the 4th ammendment notwithstanding. If a kid bashes another kid, the teacher
should bash the perpetrator, have the parents (such as there are) come
over and have the law enforce responsibility over the kid's behavior. (Perhaps
my comment on bashing the kid is a little overdone - but the point is that
authority of the adult in a school situation should prevail.) So for example,
when some foolish irresponsible parent unjustifiably sues a school district
for some non-upheld alleged illegal activity of a teacher, like "He grabbed
my kid by the shirt collar while my kid was trying to kill someone- and
teachers cannot TOUCH a kid", sue the bastards back for child abuse and
harassment!
I would welcome your thoughts.
Thanks,
Bill Liebermanpeter@usenix.UUCP (Peter H. Salus) (07/30/88)
Bill is, of course right, we are a nation of ignoramuses. And so far as I can tell, the situation is one in which entropy wins and what I think of as civilization loses. I spent over 20 years as a professor and was (at various and sundry institutions in the US and Canada) a department chair, a divisional chair, associate dean, dean of Arts and Sciences, etc., until I became a drop-out. While education-bashing is currently in vogue, it is unarguable that both the elementary/secondary and the post-secondary systems have deteriorated over the past 25 years. My personal feeling is that this is the direct result of losing confidence in ourselves. In WWII and in Korea those of us who were alive were pretty damn certain just who were the good guys and who were the bad guys. In Vietnam (and since) this has been far from clear. Furthermore, we can see those evil agressor nations of 40 years ago as the economic victors. Our sense of right and wrong being confused, our ability to deem and evaluate has decayed: in the 60s we weren't certain just what should/should not be required for a college degree -- so requirements disappeared. The culmination of this is the simultaneous lunacy of Stanford's revisionist great books and Secretary Bennett's attack on the new reading list. In the 70s, most North American school systems knew that it was more important for kids to acquire social skills (like smoking dope?) than to learn facts: so we moved kids ahead with their age-peers, without regard for acquisition of information or skills (like reading). Bill's sack-of-potatoes got his/her diploma through aspiration: you breathed for 12 years and got a piece of paper which no longer certified you could read, write, nor locate Colombia on a map (though you would know where to acquire its powdery export). Over the last decade, we have also become more conscious of the fact that not all discoveries were made by white men, not all literature was written by them, not all works of the performing or visual arts stem from them. And I think this is a good thing, for I read both Sappho and Wilson Harris (as well as Paul Lawrence Dunbar and Leopold Senghor and Simone de Beauvoir) and I enjoy L. Anderson as much as P. Glass and my wife and I own works by both A. and J. Albers. So what? Jane Austen and Charlotte Bronte and George Eliot are as much a part of the 19th century English novel as Walter Scott, Charles Dickens, and George Meredith. And students of American literature most likely read Emily Dickinson's verse more than they read Ralph Waldo Emerson's. As a cultural snob, I feel very strongly about this -- and about a lot of other stuff. But most importantly, I think we have an inverted educational structure: we pay our full professors (who hardly teach) quite well and our K-3 teachers (in whose hands are the minds of children acquiring the basic tools of reading and calculating) a pittance we wouldn't offer a receptionist or typist. (Of course, this is because the former are traditionally breadwinners with families and the latter are spinsters with fathers or brothers or married women earning extra funds -- the most recent surveys by NSF, NEA, etc., show that 70 years after winning the vote, women average 72% of men's salaries.) We pay our trash collectors and hairdressers better than those to whom we entrust the future (the children) and then we complain that they don't do a good job. If I went out and hired a $15/hour programmer, no one would think I'd get a wizard or guru. Why should I for $17,500/year? (Or, to take a real example, why should a senior special education teacher in Marin Co, CA, with a doctorate, hit *ceiling* at under $35K?) If our worst students go into education; and their worst students go into education; etc.; why do we wonder that in a few generations the system has deteriorated? Peter H. Salus Executive Director, USENIX Association (which takes no responsibility for my words or attitudes.)
lamaster@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Hugh LaMaster) (08/01/88)
In article <160@usenix.UUCP> peter@usenix.UUCP (Peter H. Salus) writes: >Bill is, of course right, we are a nation of ignoramuses. And so As a followup to many previous articles: I wonder how US children and adults compare with those of other countries. My personal observation is that the average person is pretty much the same with respect to ignorance wherever one goes in industrialized countries, and even, to some extent, in the (few) non-industrialized countries I have visited. Now, in most countries, including European countries, a much smaller percentage of students go to "universities", but, that is largely a result of US name inflation anyway. Some years ago, the California State Colleges were renamed Universities, but that didn't change the focus of the programs from "training" to "learning to learn". What I find potentially more troublesome is that in the US the top 5% of students are not challenged as much as in most other countries and are about a year behind the foreign students at about age 18. However, I brought this up with friends and coworkers from foreign countries some time ago, and the opinion seemed unanimous: The students in high pressure academic tracks in those countries pay too high a price for that year advantage. So, at this point I am undecided. The real problem of education is that of educating INDIVIDUALS, when no one system is going to ideal for everyone. If someone out there has solved this problem, there is an eager world out here waiting to hear the answer :-) I do agree that teachers in the US appear to be not adequately paid, though, remember that the salary usually quoted is for about 10 months work, and some teachers take the job so that they can travel during the extra two months of vacation. The theory of salaries is an interesting sidelight for those interested in sociology: Why do people get paid what they get paid? (Hint:) Only in a few cases does true supply and demand appear to be answer. To conclude: "Ain't it awful?" :-) -- Hugh LaMaster, m/s 233-9, UUCP ames!lamaster NASA Ames Research Center ARPA lamaster@ames.arc.nasa.gov Moffett Field, CA 94035 Phone: (415)694-6117
wlieberm@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (William Lieberman) (08/02/88)
I read somewhere today that the geography survey we have been discussing: the USA placed only ahead of Italy and Mexico. There were around 10 or 11 countries surveyed (the usual Western industrialized countries. [Is Mexico industrialized?]) 55% of Americans surveyed could not find Central America on a map! (This is so impossible sounding, I wonder if by the phrase "Central America", many Americans interpret this ambiguously to mean "Middle America."-In other words I don't know about the scientific soundness of the survey method - but it doesn't matter. All of us know the truth is disturbing) Of course, Hugh is right when he says that there is a lot of needless ignorance everywhere, and I accept his fundamental point. Bill-- wlieberm@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA
gupta@cullsj.UUCP (Yogesh Gupta) (08/04/88)
In article <24171@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA>, wlieberm@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (William Lieberman) writes: > I read somewhere today that the geography survey we have been discussing: > the USA placed only ahead of Italy and Mexico. There were around 10 or 11 > countries surveyed (the usual Western industrialized countries. [Is Mexico > industrialized?]) It is interesting that the survey contained more questions about finding West European countries than countries in North America (I know there aren't that many to ask about in N. America :-). But, doesn't that give an edge to a West European? If that is the case, how does one come up with a 'fair' survey? -- Yogesh Gupta | If you think my company will let me Cullinet Software, Inc. | speak for them, you must be joking.
pete@wor-mein.UUCP (Pete Turner) (08/04/88)
In article <378@cullsj.UUCP> gupta@cullsj.UUCP (Yogesh Gupta) writes: >In article <24171@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA>, wlieberm@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (William Lieberman) writes: >> I read somewhere today that the geography survey we have been discussing: >> the USA placed only ahead of Italy and Mexico. There were around 10 or 11 >> countries surveyed (the usual Western industrialized countries. [Is Mexico >> industrialized?]) > >It is interesting that the survey contained more questions about >finding West European countries than countries in North America >(I know there aren't that many to ask about in N. America :-). >But, doesn't that give an edge to a West European? If that is >the case, how does one come up with a 'fair' survey? > I hate to say it, but I think we could restrict the survey to N. America (maybe states in the U.S.?) and come up with results that are no less unsettling. Just an idle thought. Pete