gtaylor@heurikon.UUCP (Ik betwijfel 't....) (12/01/88)
One of the things about the business of publishing scholarly (or any kind) of books that hasn't been mentioned here and will probably only make sense to old farts *over* the 30 years during which they're making fantastic salaries is the relatively recent change in the rules for inventory. My experience has been that it's been monumentally to blame for driving the cost of some texts through the roof. Back in the old days when you didn't get chased down the street by angry mobs for admitting some interest in Liberalism, the rules on the books for accounting and tax purposes stated that you could print thousands of copies of your perhaps less than mainstream text (thus keeping your printing costs/copy somewhat in line) and then keep them in your inventory over a large number of years, getting a decent tax break on your business expenses for your inventories. If you knew that your text on Elementary Fregmolization was maybe going to move 500 copies per year, you simply ran off 2000 of them and kept a lid on your prices (since printing costs are also fluid as well). The current rules of this kinder and gentler America are now such that there are restrictions on doing that which effectively make it impossible to do. The net result has been that the small to moderate runs of scholarly texts all over the map either go out of print completely (which makes theft of said texts from libraries a crime I'd be willing to turn over to the Shi'a Islamic courts any day), or that they're printed in much smaller editions and thus subject to dramatic rises in cost per printed copy at the first run and then as the book is reprinted. Since the standard number of review copies necessary to find the people who'd actually *use* the text remains essentially the same in spite of these increased costs, the availability of review copies is also totally messed up (making it harder to find the books if you're looking for something like them). Nasty business. Of course, there was something of an outcry among a number of us back when the rules went into effect, claiming that this would have a major impact on the price and availability of everything except for Tom Clancy and Jacqueline (and, I suppose, Gardner's History of Art) Collins. The great sadness of all this for me is that I guess I was righter than I thought. One final note and essay questions: Have any of you budding analysts looked into the average profit margins of the currently constituted publishing market? While the desktop route has some real promise (and some real hazard, judging from the atrocious design and layout I've seen in a couple of "new" desktop computer and engineering texts), the business still has the usual constraints, and those margins are a lot tighter than I'll bet a number of you budding engineers would be willing to live with in *your* business life. Greg (trying to figure out whether I should use that $40 University of Chicago text on Foucault and Post-Structuralism for the seminar text or fall back on using Jean Auell's "The Clan of the Cave Bear" like I did last semester ....;-) Taylor -- the end of the road is the end of the line/the end of the line is the place in your heart/where the searchlights cut the dark and define/the place at which the fences start/over the line/over the wall/an arbitrary border/after all/you cannot move/with equal ease/may i see/your passport please/greg taylor/Heurikon/3201 Latham Dr./Madison, WI 53716/608-271-8700
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (12/03/88)
in article <278@heurikon.UUCP>, gtaylor@heurikon.UUCP (Ik betwijfel 't....) says: > fantastic salaries is the relatively recent change in the rules for > inventory. My experience has been that it's been monumentally to blame > for driving the cost of some texts through the roof. Not only has it been to blame for driving the cost of textbooks through the roof, it has also reduced backlists throughout the publishing industry to near ZILCH. Books appear on the shelves, spend their 3 weeks in the limelight, and then are destroyed and written off as a loss -- that's the ONLY way to get them written off. The same thing also has happened in many other industries, e.g. railroads are ripping up tracks left and right because of tax laws that make it cheaper to destroy than to maintain. > Of course, there was something of an outcry among a number of us back > when the rules went into effect, claiming that this would have a major > impact on the price and availability of everything except for Tom > Clancy and Jacqueline (and, I suppose, Gardner's History of Art) > Collins. The great sadness of all this for me is that I guess I was > righter than I thought. See Don Lancaster's monthly columns in Computer Shopper, which often laments the situation (he had to resort to self-publication of his older books... since they were not "best sellers", and were of a hobbiest rather than academic nature, nobody was interested in carrying them on the shelves for more than 6 weeks). > One final note and essay questions: Have any of you budding analysts > looked into the average profit margins of the currently constituted > publishing market? Low. Real low. Even for academic books -- your local bookstore gets a VERY small percentage of that cover price. The reasoning of the publisher is, "they have a guaranteed market and sell hundreds of the things, so they don't need a big margin". This also means that you will not find books intended for academic use in a normal bookstore -- regular bookstores won't tolerate such tight margins. -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 "We have treatments for disturbed persons, Nicholas. But, at least for the moment, we have no treatment for disturbing persons." -- Dr. Island
dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) (12/05/88)
In article <6304@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes: >...your local bookstore gets a >VERY small percentage of that cover price. The reasoning of the >publisher is, "they have a guaranteed market and sell hundreds of the >things, so they don't need a big margin". The bookstore decides what margin it wants; publishers have no say in deciding at what price a bookstore will sell textbooks. -- Rahul Dhesi UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!dhesi
bumby@math.rutgers.edu (Richard Bumby) (12/06/88)
In article <4959@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes: > In article <6304@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) > writes: > >...your local bookstore gets a > >VERY small percentage of that cover price... > > The bookstore decides what margin it wants; publishers have no say in > deciding at what price a bookstore will sell textbooks. Actually both are right. Until very recently, the publishers marked the retail price on the book and offered the bookstore a discount from that price. The latest trend is to sell to everyone at the same price and let the store decide on its price. This means that you should be able to order direct from the publisher at the wholesale price. In some cases this is possible, but it is more likely that the publisher will deal with the public through its own retail outlet. The real effect of this is that the stores now treat all prices as wholesale prices, e.g. the Rutgers store sells Spivak's "Joy of TeX" for $42.70 on those rare occasions when it is in stock, but you can order it from the AMS for $25 if you are a member (and not that much more if you are not). Similarly, when I used some modules from COMAP for a course, the store sold them for between $2 and $2.50 apiece when they were advertised as available for $1. each. The store can only meet its operating expenses through the markup on what it sells, and there is no better way to get a Calculus book into the hands of thousand diverse students scattered around the campus, but the lower volume stuff needs a different method of distribution. -- --R. T. Bumby ** Math ** Rutgers ** New Brunswick ** (in one form or another for all kinds of mail) [bumby@math.rutgers.edu]
conrad@wucs1.wustl.edu (H. Conrad Cunningham) (12/07/88)
In article <4959@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes: >The bookstore decides what margin it wants; publishers have no say in >deciding at what price a bookstore will sell textbooks. True, but I think most publishers give a suggested retail price for their books. I suspect college bookstores stick fairly close to that price.
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (12/07/88)
in article <4959@bsu-cs.UUCP>, dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) says: > Xref: killer sci.math:4953 sci.physics:5165 comp.edu:1644 > In article <6304@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) > writes: >>...your local bookstore gets a >>VERY small percentage of that cover price. The reasoning of the >>publisher is, "they have a guaranteed market and sell hundreds of the >>things, so they don't need a big margin". > The bookstore decides what margin it wants; publishers have no say in > deciding at what price a bookstore will sell textbooks. True enough, BUT, if you look at "Books in Print", the publishers tell you the cover price of the book, i.e. what the bookseller SHOULD sell it for. But, since the "cover price" is nowhere on the cover of any academic textbook, the bookseller can, indeed, sell it for any price... just stick any old label on it. That, of course, only works if the bookseller has no competition. What generally happens when there IS competition, e.g. on the USL campus, is that the competing bookstores have a "gentleman's agreement" to keep prices high. E.g. "look, you get the Pell grant students, so just let us charge 50 cents less than your 100% markup, and we'll be satisfied and won't make a hassle for you with the Pell Foundation". -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 "We have treatments for disturbed persons, Nicholas. But, at least for the moment, we have no treatment for disturbing persons." -- Dr. Island
hofbauer@csri.toronto.edu (John Hofbauer) (12/08/88)
>> The bookstore decides what margin it wants; publishers have no say in >> deciding at what price a bookstore will sell textbooks. > >True enough, BUT, if you look at "Books in Print", the publishers tell >you the cover price of the book, i.e. what the bookseller SHOULD sell >it for. But, since the "cover price" is nowhere on the cover of any >academic textbook, the bookseller can, indeed, sell it for any >price... just stick any old label on it. > I've noticed that in the past year or two "Books in Print" have stopped giving a suggested list price for many textbooks. They tell you to contact the publisher. They do continue giving a price for trade books. Hmmm, do we smell a rat here?
dpletche@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (David Pletcher) (12/10/88)
I don't know much about the specifics of the profit margin split between college bookstores, but I have an example which may shed some light: Two years ago I bought H&R Physics parts I & II at Caltech NEW during a summer science program for $20.00; the program was selling the books at cost, I believe. At the beginning of this semester, I was shocked to see the exact same book selling for $56.00 in our college bookstore. Strange but true... David Pletcher dpletcher@hmcvax.bitnet (714) 621-8000 ext. 2065 dpletche@jarthur.claremont.edu
maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) (12/12/88)
In article <4959@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes: >In article <6304@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) >writes: >>...your local bookstore gets a >>VERY small percentage of that cover price. The reasoning of the >>publisher is, "they have a guaranteed market and sell hundreds of the >>things, so they don't need a big margin". > >The bookstore decides what margin it wants; publishers have no say in >deciding at what price a bookstore will sell textbooks. Unless things have changed radically in bookstores in recent years, bookstores in most instances follow publishers' prices with essentially mindless fidelity. The baselines used to be these: "trade book" (hardcover, large paperback)--discounted 40% to the bookseller (he pays $6.00 for a $10.00 book); "textbook" (a classification assigned by the publisher and including not only books obviously intended only as texts but certain others that the publishers had found sold *mostly* as texts)--discounted 20% to the bookseller (he pays $8. 00 for a $10.00 book); miscellaneous others at 30% (small paperbacks gotten from a local wholesaler, etc.); certain very privileged books (ones that the publisher is hustling, such as very large run popular novels)--50% (i.e., what a retailer expects on damned near everything). In all these instances, the bookseller pays postage (both ways on returns, quite common with texts). So if you want to know why obscene operations such as Waldenbooks and B. Dalton are taking over the world, look at these figures to begin with. Then consider the commented-upon fact that publishers no longer can take a tax break on backstock and that most mundane of facts, the high price of mailing books. Combined with computerization of the book trade, these add up to an oligopoly of massive wholesaler sells to massive retailer, and the individual bookseller, once the backbone of the trade, struggles at best. One could probably tell a similar story about grocery stores. Anyone want to comment upon, add to, or update these figures?
elm@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (ethan miller) (12/13/88)
In article <841@novavax.UUCP> maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) writes:
-> In all these instances, the bookseller pays postage (both ways
->on returns, quite common with texts).
->
-> So if you want to know why obscene operations such as
->Waldenbooks and B. Dalton are taking over the world, look at these
->figures to begin with. Then consider the commented-upon fact that
->publishers no longer can take a tax break on backstock and that most
->mundane of facts, the high price of mailing books. Combined with
^^^^^
Hardly a fact. If you use 4th class (book rate) to mail books, it's
less than 30 cents per pound to mail cross-country. I don't know if
it's lower for shorter distances. I do know that when I moved to CA
from Boston, I paid around $11 for each box of books that weighed
around 40 pounds. Now, I've never seen a college text that cost less
than $15/pound, and many cost much more. That's $.60 postage _both
ways_ for $15, and, as I said, most books cost even more than that.
->computerization of the book trade, these add up to an oligopoly of
->massive wholesaler sells to massive retailer, and the individual
->bookseller, once the backbone of the trade, struggles at best.
->
-> One could probably tell a similar story about grocery stores.
->
-> Anyone want to comment upon, add to, or update these figures?
---------------- "Quod erat demonstrandum, baby." ------------------------
WHO: ethan miller | WHERE: bandersnatch@ernie.berkeley.edu
HOW: (415) 643-6228 | WHAT : overworked underpaid graduate student