thisted@galton.uchicago.edu (Ronald A. Thisted) (12/13/88)
In article <15406@joyce.istc.sri.com> gds@spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner) writes: >Another cute thing he did that pissed the hell out of a friend of >mine was to post everyone's name, id #, and final grade on his door. >My friend was embarrassed because he didn't get a high grade. I, on >the other hand, thought it was unethical. It may not be unethical, but it is both unprofessional and *illegal*. The Family Education Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 prohibits disclosure of such information as grades without the written consent of the student (with a few exceptions which do not apply to posting or publishing grades). Ron Thisted Department of Statistics/The University of Chicago thisted@galton.uchicago.edu
ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (12/13/88)
In article <1140@tank.uchicago.edu> thisted@galton.UUCP (Ronald A. Thisted) writes: >It may not be unethical, but it is both unprofessional and *illegal*. >The Family Education Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 prohibits >disclosure of such information as grades without the written consent of >the student (with a few exceptions which do not apply to posting or >publishing grades). I'm curious about this. I come from NZ, and as I recall it, quite a lot of the classes I attended had marks published. We were told from primary school onwards that all our marks would be available to an employer. (I don't know if it's true, but that's what the teachers told us about our "brown cards". I don't know what the current state of affairs is.) The results of the scholarship exams at the end of high school were published in the national newspapers. I never met anyone who said they disliked this practice. Your _final_ grade is surely a matter of public record: you either have your M.Phil. or whatever or you haven't, so why should any other mark be different? What's the reason for making it illegal to disclose class marks?
johnm@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (John Murray) (12/14/88)
In article <852@quintus.UUCP>, ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: > I come from NZ, and as I recall it, quite a lot > of the classes I attended had marks published. We were told from > primary school onwards that all our marks would be available to an > employer. . . . > The results of the scholarship exams at the end of high > school were published in the national newspapers. I never met anyone > who said they disliked this practice. Your _final_ grade is surely a > matter of public record: you either have your M.Phil. or whatever or > you haven't, so why should any other mark be different? What's the reason > for making it illegal to disclose class marks? In Ireland and Britain, the system is similar to New Zealand. People in the U.S. seem quite preoccupied with this type of privacy. No-one ever compares salaries, for example. On the other hand, auto licenses, credit data, etc. appear to be fairly freely available, at least to those who can afford it. As a non-American, I'm much more concerned about strangers knowing my phone number than I am about their knowing my German grades. - John Murray (My own opinions, etc.)
dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) (12/14/88)
To answer the burning question of why grades are not posted publicly in
the USA:
Privacy is a red herring.
Educators don't want students comparing each others' grades too freely,
lest they (the students) discover how inconsistent grading often is.
And in business, salaries are confidential for the same reason.
But people have been brainwashed into believing that they should be
ashamed of their grades, or of their salaries.
Divide and conquer -- and it works!
--
Rahul Dhesi UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!dhesibjornl@nada.kth.se (Bj|rn Lisper) (12/16/88)
In article <852@quintus.UUCP> ok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >In article <1140@tank.uchicago.edu> thisted@galton.UUCP (Ronald A. Thisted) >writes: >>It may not be unethical, but it is both unprofessional and *illegal*. >>The Family Education Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 prohibits >>disclosure of such information as grades without the written consent of >>the student (with a few exceptions which do not apply to posting or >>publishing grades). > >I'm curious about this. I come from NZ, and as I recall it, quite a lot >of the classes I attended had marks published.....The results of the >scholarship exams at the end of high school were published in the national >newspapers. .... I also find it strange. I'm from Sweden, where most schools are public. Here I think examination results are available to anyone who asks, due to the so-called principle of publicity. This is a law that applies to most information stored by public services and requires them to disclose this information to anyone who requests. (Natural exemptions are military information and medical records.) Thus, our legislation is exactly the opposite of the American! This does not imply, however, that examination results in Sweden are always posted with grades and name. Sometimes they are, sometimes they ain't. But if anyone asks about any result I think the school is obliged to disclose it. Bjorn Lisper
dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;) (12/19/88)
Rahul Dhesi writes: > >Educators don't want students comparing each others' grades too freely, >lest they (the students) discover how inconsistent grading often is. I don't think so. Grades are not publicly availiable just in case the student is planning on running for Vice-President someday. (For foreigners who don't understand the allusion: in our recent election, there was a little tempest-in-a-teapot (i.e. media invented controversy) about the unwillingness of the current VP-elect to release his law school grades.) >And in business, salaries are confidential for the same reason. Now, here, you are right. --- Dan Tilque -- dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
skyler@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Patricia Roberts) (12/19/88)
In article <4302@teklds.CAE.TEK.COM> dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes: >Rahul Dhesi writes: >>Educators don't want students comparing each others' grades too freely, >>lest they (the students) discover how inconsistent grading often is. > >I don't think so. Grades are not publicly availiable just in case the >student is planning on running for Vice-President someday. Actually, it is ILLEGAL for an instructor to release a student's grades (except under certain specific circumstances.) This is good for the student, in that Mom and Dad can only see the student's grades if the student lets them (or if they open mail--as my folks did.) It also means that other instructors can't pre-judge a student ("ahh, since she got a B in such and such a class, she must be stupid...") Basically, the student gets to choose how private her grades will be. It didn't seem like a big issue to me until last week when I saw that someone had posted grades by name. I suddenly realized how furious I would be if that had happened to me, regardless of what grade I received. There's a lot of pressure here not to do too well in school nor too badly. Posting grades would just increase that pressure. Where I taught as a grad student, grades were posted by registration number. Here, we were told that posting grades even by that method was probably illegal. That seems silly to me. Even given the incredible disparity between sections (of student ability) it helps students pick sections to look at an instructor's previous grades. (Not that an instructor with a lot of A's is an easy grader, necessarily, but at least a student can figure out of the instructor grades on a curve.) And, personally, if a student wants an easy-A prof, I'd far prefer they take someone else's section. -- -Trish "...Turning off onto a dirt road (919)230-0809 from the raw cuts bulldozed through a quiet village for the tourist run to Canada..." skyler@ecsvax.uncecs.edu -A. Rich
dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) (12/20/88)
In article <6125@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> skyler@ecsvax.UUCP (Patricia Roberts) writes: >Where I taught as a grad student, grades were posted by registration >number. Here, we were told that posting grades even by that method was >probably illegal. That seems silly to me. Even given the incredible I remember back to Junior Lab where grades were posted by registration number, but they were posted in alphabetical order. Didn't make a whole lot of sense. The way I'll be handling it from now on is that I will require my students to get computer accounts to handle communication between me and them (both collective things like changes in a problem set and individual things like setting up appointments) and I will email each student her/his grade at the end of the term. Dave Eisen dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU 439 Del Medio Ave., #39 I can never remember the formulas. Mountain View, CA 94040 I have to rederive things every time. (415) 941-6810
fritz@mit-caf.MIT.EDU (Frederick Herrmann) (12/20/88)
In article <5734@polya.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes: > >The way I'll be handling it from now on is that I will require my >students to get computer accounts to handle communication between me >and them (both collective things like changes in a problem set and >individual things like setting up appointments) and I will email each >student her/his grade at the end of the term. > Let's not forget the low-tech solution: I've sometimes turned in a self-addressed stamped envelope with my final exam or paper. This works better than email at the end of the term when many students are going home, where they may not be able to read their email. fritz@caf.mit.edu Frederick P. Herrmann
nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Liber) (12/22/88)
In article <5734@polya.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes: >The way I'll be handling it from now on is that I will require my >students to get computer accounts to handle communication between me >and them (both collective things like changes in a problem set and >individual things like setting up appointments) and I will email each >student her/his grade at the end of the term. This still may not be legal. Since sysadmins also have access to these accounts, and many of them at universities are students, you may still be violating the privacy act. One method that works for posting grades is to let each student pick a secret name/word at the beginning of the year, and post their grades with the word they picked. I can't see any problems with it (other than pick bad names, but that is the student's fault, not the professor's). -- NEVIN ":-)" LIBER AT&T Bell Laboratories nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (312) 979-4751
cd@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Clarence K. Din) (12/23/88)
In article <9248@ihlpb.ATT.COM> nevin1@ihlpb.UUCP (55528-Liber,N.J.) writes: >In article <5734@polya.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes: > >One method that works for posting grades is to let each student pick a >secret name/word at the beginning of the year, and post their grades >with the word they picked. I can't see any problems with it (other >than pick bad names, but that is the student's fault, not the >professor's). Suppose John tells Jeff, "I got a 98 on the final exam... the highest grade in the class," and Jeff replies, "Oh, so you're 'tootsie'." :^) cd
scoop@aplvax.jhuapl.edu (Steve Cooper) (12/23/88)
In article <9248@ihlpb.ATT.COM> nevin1@ihlpb.UUCP (55528-Liber,N.J.) writes: >In article <5734@polya.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes: > >>The way I'll be handling it from now on is that I will require my >>students to get computer accounts to handle communication between me >>and them... > >This still may not be legal.... >One method that works for posting grades is to let each student pick a >secret name/word at the beginning of the year, and post their grades >with the word they picked. What's wrong with the method of posting grades with the students' Social Security Numbers beside the grade? SSN's are rather unique (would hope so!) and they are not known to anyone but the individual - unless he/she has shared it with others. Anyone who has access to the student's SSN by other methods (forms, etc), is bound by privacy in those situations not to disclose this info. So I would assume this also precludes them from checking out students' grades based on info they received in such a manner. Did I miss a discussion on SSN's before? Steve Cooper scoop@aplvax.jhuapl.edu.UUCP
jjc@cisunx.UUCP (Jeffrey James Bryan Carpenter) (12/24/88)
In article <9248@ihlpb.ATT.COM> nevin1@ihlpb.UUCP (55528-Liber,N.J.) writes: >In article <5734@polya.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes: >>individual things like setting up appointments) and I will email each >>student her/his grade at the end of the term. > >This still may not be legal. Since sysadmins also have access to these >accounts, and many of them at universities are students, you may still >be violating the privacy act. That same system administrator could probably also see the report cards printing out on the line printer. I doubt email would violate the privacy act. jeff -- Jeffrey J. B. Carpenter, University of Pittsburgh, Computer Center USMAIL: 600 Epsilon Drive, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15238 jjc@cisunx.UUCP | AT&T 1 412 624 6424 | JJC@PITTVMS.BITNET JJC@VMS.CIS.PITTSBURGH.EDU or JJC%VMS.CIS.PITTSBURGH.EDU@VB.CC.CMU.EDU
gal@atux01.UUCP (G. Levine) (12/27/88)
One thing we seem to be missing in this whole discussion is the disparity of the instructors' grading systems. I took a course in Math Education when I was in college (Ohio University), and the first day the instructor gave out a student's completed math test. Some problems were right, some wrong, but the test was not marked as to how much each problem was worth. The instructor said to assign our own values and grade this test. The test grades varied from the mid-30s to the mid-80s on the EXACT SAME TEST. It really drove home to me how little grades can really mean. gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Its better to give than to receive--besides, its deductible. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Liber) (12/28/88)
In article <26862@bu-cs.BU.EDU> cd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Clarence K. Din) writes: |In article <9248@ihlpb.ATT.COM> nevin1@ihlpb.UUCP (55528-Liber,N.J.) writes: |>One method that works for posting grades is to let each student pick a |>secret name/word at the beginning of the year, and post their grades |>with the word they picked. I can't see any problems with it (other |>than pick bad names, but that is the student's fault, not the |>professor's). |Suppose John tells Jeff, "I got a 98 on the final exam... the highest grade |in the class," and Jeff replies, "Oh, so you're 'tootsie'." :^) This is the fault of the student, not the teacher. There is nothing stopping you from disclosing information about yourself. -- NEVIN ":-)" LIBER AT&T Bell Laboratories nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (312) 979-4751
nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Liber) (12/28/88)
In article <2786@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> scoop@aplvax.jhuapl.edu.UUCP (Steve Cooper) writes: >What's wrong with the method of posting grades with the students' >Social Security Numbers beside the grade? >SSN's are rather unique (would hope so!) Common fallacy. They are *not* unique; look at the comp.risks archives for the problems this has caused in the past. >and they are not known to anyone but the individual - >unless he/she has shared it with others. Anyone who has access to the >student's SSN by other methods (forms, etc), is bound by privacy in >those situations not to disclose this info. Considering that most schools use your SSN as your school id number, your SSN is probably printed on your id (heck, it is even on my driver's license). Irregardless of the law, your SSN is effectively knowledge known to the public. -- NEVIN ":-)" LIBER AT&T Bell Laboratories nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (312) 979-4751
nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Liber) (12/28/88)
In article <14636@cisunx.UUCP> jjc@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu (Jeffrey James Bryan Carpenter) writes: |In article <9248@ihlpb.ATT.COM> nevin1@ihlpb.UUCP (55528-Liber,N.J.) writes: | >This still may not be legal. Since sysadmins also have access to these | >accounts, and many of them at universities are students, you may still | >be violating the privacy act. |That same system administrator could probably also see the report |cards printing out on the line printer. I *hope* the sysadmin for your grade reporting machine is *not* a student at that university. If it is, you have many more security problems than need be discussed here. |I doubt email would violate the privacy act. The privacy act doesn't stop the information from being disclosed. Who is prepared to sue over disclosure of grades? -- NEVIN ":-)" LIBER AT&T Bell Laboratories nevin1@ihlpb.ATT.COM (312) 979-4751
cik@l.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) (12/29/88)
In article <864@atux01.UUCP>, gal@atux01.UUCP (G. Levine) writes: > One thing we seem to be missing in this whole discussion is > the disparity of the instructors' grading systems. I took a course > in Math Education when I was in college (Ohio University), and > the first day the instructor gave out a student's completed math > test. Some problems were right, some wrong, but the test was not > marked as to how much each problem was worth. The instructor said > to assign our own values and grade this test. The test grades varied > from the mid-30s to the mid-80s on the EXACT SAME TEST. It really > drove home to me how little grades can really mean. I agree grades are not very meaningful, but that is a poor argument. Even if the values of the problems were given, there would still be disparate grading. What is being graded? Different people grade for different things, and usually the unimportant stuff gets the most emphasis. Multiple choice grading is one of the unfortunate educational "improvements" whose results are catastrophic. I look for understanding what is to be done, and I will frequently give full credit for the last part of a problem if it is done correctly using the erroneous results of the first part; that is the hardest situation for giving partial credit. I always tell the students to put down all their work, and sometimes I even do not give credit for the right answer if obtained by the wrong method. This is what is needed in the evaluation of mathematics; not the memorization of techniques, the plugging into formulas, and other imitations of a computer. The imporatant parts cannot be graded objectively. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@l.cc.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet, UUCP)
sukenick@ccnysci.UUCP (SYG) (12/29/88)
>I look for understanding what is to be done, and I will frequently give full >credit for the last part of a problem if it is done correctly using the >erroneous results of the first part; that is the hardest situation for giving >partial credit. I always tell the students to put down all their work, and >sometimes I even do not give credit for the right answer if obtained by the >wrong method. right! (at least, I agree! :-)) In the chemistry exams that I make up, whenever possible, I do not allow calculators and tell the students that I do not want the numerical answer - I want them to show all work and set up the final form of problem. Hopefully, on the college level, the students should know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide even if it is with the aid of a calculator (wishful thinking ? :-) ). The material being learned is how to solve the problem, not elementary math. This method of giving exams has many advantages including eliminating some possibilities of cheating (eg: by storing material in programmable calculators, stickers ON the calculator back (I kid you not!) and the problems with passing around of calculators), not penalizing students without calculators, goofs in calculations, and perhaps some added time that would have otherwise been spent doing the calculations (well, the students probably would not agree with this point :-)).