scott@acw.UUCP (Scott Guthery) (12/21/88)
Teachers succeed without teaching and students succeed without learning. Is there really any question why there's no education going on in our education system? A teacher's only use for students to get money out of taxpayers. The more money they get, the less they teach. Once they get tenure or graduate into administration, they do nothing useful at all. $300 billion/year we dump into our education system and 20% of our high school graduates can't find the U.S. on a world map. It makes the DoD look like a model of efficiency and fiscal responsibility. Thanks to the U.S. Department of Social Engineering's reinterpretation of "all men are created equal" as "any dolt can do any job," students know damn well they can live a good life in America off the sweat of somebody else's brow. The more complaints & disadvantages a student can muster the better grade he gets and the less he is required to accomplish. As long as we continue to reward excuses for failure and resent achievement, our education system will continue to build yet more fetid byways in the intellectual sewer. AIDS studies, anyone? +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+**+*+ "Education, which was at first made universal in order that all might be able to read and write, has been found capable of serving quite other purposes. By instilling nonsense, it unifies populations and generates collective enthusiasm." Bertrand Russell +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+**+*+
dwd@sfsup.UUCP (D.W.Dougherty) (12/22/88)
In article <7.UUL1.3#913@acw.UUCP> scott@acw.UUCP (Scott Guthery) writes:
:: Teachers succeed without teaching and students succeed without learning.
:: Is there really any question why there's no education going on in our
:: education system?
::
:: A teacher's only use for students to get money out of taxpayers. The
:: more money they get, the less they teach. Once they get tenure or graduate
:: into administration, they do nothing useful at all. $300 billion/year we
:: dump into our education system and 20% of our high school graduates can't
:: find the U.S. on a world map. It makes the DoD look like a model
:: of efficiency and fiscal responsibility.
::
:: Thanks to the U.S. Department of Social Engineering's reinterpretation
:: of "all men are created equal" as "any dolt can do any job," students
:: know damn well they can live a good life in America off the sweat of somebody
:: else's brow. The more complaints & disadvantages a student can muster
:: the better grade he gets and the less he is required to accomplish.
::
:: As long as we continue to reward excuses for failure and resent achievement,
:: our education system will continue to build yet more fetid byways in the
:: intellectual sewer. AIDS studies, anyone?
::
I believe that load and fanatic applause is appropriate here!!jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man) (12/24/88)
)In article <7.UUL1.3#913@acw.UUCP> scott@acw.UUCP (Scott Guthery) writes: ):: Teachers succeed without teaching and students succeed without learning. ):: Is there really any question why there's no education going on in our ):: education system? ):: ):: A teacher's only use for students to get money out of taxpayers. The ):: more money they get, the less they teach. Once they get tenure or graduate ):: into administration, they do nothing useful at all. $300 billion/year we [ more of the same deleted] In article <4463@sfsup.UUCP> dwd@/guestc/dwdUUCP (45421-D.W.Dougherty) writes: )I believe that load and fanatic applause is appropriate here!! Clearly, writing skills are poorly taught. ;-) The fact is that teaching is not valued; at least not in the USofA. The day I quit teaching to become a computer consultant I doubled my salary. I've since doubled it again. The ones who remain behind tend to be those who can't make it in the real world. I'm speaking here of institutions geared for teaching. At those geared for research, teaching is often a chore delegated to those without political pull or seniority to avoid it. Ability to teach rarely enters into the equation. I am, of course, speaking in generalities. There are numerous exceptions. The point is that we get what we pay for. The 'fraud' is being perpetrated on ourselves. As W.C. Fields said, "You can't cheat an honest man." -- Spaffords Axiom: "The Usenet is not the real world. The Usenet usually does not even resemble the real world." jim (uunet!actnyc!jsb)
childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) (12/24/88)
In article <7.UUL1.3#913@acw.UUCP> scott@acw.UUCP (Scott Guthery) writes: >Teachers succeed without teaching and students succeed without learning. >Is there really any question why there's no education going on in our >education system? As far as I'm concerned, why don't the parents take a leadership position in teaching their children how to think, how to read, how to write ? I've seen several friends who had children, then sat passively when they were in an ideal position to begin stimulating the child's problem-solving process, telling the child to go take a nap when they could have been just as easily reading them a story. In my own case, I was reading when I was *two*, habitually by the time I was four, slavishly by the time I was six or seven. Much of this is related to my mother's initial efforts at stimulating my tiny intellect, no doubt. How can a child think critically and question the teacher when everything they experience at home and at school tells them to remain silent, not to challenge the teacher, be it a school official or a parent, to just shut up and endure ? When I moved to San Francisco, at the age of ten, I was the most educated child in my school, a situation that remained predictable for years after. Inevitably, my teacher identified me as suitable for skipping grades, and while I'm sorry it happened, it was the best thing at the time. While it was being worked out, I filled in my time reading whatever I wanted to, and teaching English and grammar to a new student who'd just moved to the States from Korea - another thing that's never made use of, the potential for one student to tutor another. It seems that it is only in the United States and certain Asian countries that education is seen as a competitive matter, instead of a cooperative one, a way for the society to improve itself instead of merely a way for a single individual to increase their value to the job market ... >As long as we continue to reward excuses for failure and resent achievement, >our education system will continue to build yet more fetid byways in the >intellectual sewer. AIDS studies, anyone? All rhetoric aside, how many inquiring minds have you cultivated lately ? -- richard -- * "... where there is no movement, there is no perception." * * Ribot, _The Psychology of Attention_ * * ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho * * AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D *
jdc@naucse.UUCP (John Campbell) (12/28/88)
From article <1124@actnyc.UUCP>, by jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man): % )In article <7.UUL1.3#913@acw.UUCP> scott@acw.UUCP (Scott Guthery) writes: % ):: Teachers succeed without teaching and students succeed without learning. % ):: Is there really any question why there's no education going on in our % ):: education system? % ):: % ):: A teacher's only use for students to get money out of taxpayers. The % ):: more money they get, the less they teach. Once they get tenure or graduate % ):: into administration, they do nothing useful at all. $300 billion/year we % [ more of the same deleted] % % In article <4463@sfsup.UUCP> dwd@/guestc/dwdUUCP (45421-D.W.Dougherty) writes: % )I believe that load and fanatic applause is appropriate here!! % % Clearly, writing skills are poorly taught. ;-) % % The fact is that teaching is not valued; at least not in the USofA. The day % I quit teaching to become a computer consultant I doubled my salary. I've % since doubled it again. The ones who remain behind tend to be those who % can't make it in the real world. I'm speaking here of institutions geared % for teaching. At those geared for research, teaching is often a chore % delegated to those without political pull or seniority to avoid it. Ability % to teach rarely enters into the equation. I am, of course, speaking in % generalities. There are numerous exceptions. The point is that we get what % we pay for. The 'fraud' is being perpetrated on ourselves. As W.C. Fields % said, "You can't cheat an honest man." % % -- % Spaffords Axiom: % "The Usenet is not the real world. The Usenet usually does not even % resemble the real world." % jim (uunet!actnyc!jsb) I agree with jim (what he said). I also left teaching, in my case from the secondary level, because, in part, I kept hearing "them that can do, them that can't teach." Even in a continuing education course I heard this from a prof who wondered what all those high school teachers were doing in a complex analysis course. (My response was "them that can't teach teach teachers".) In my family there have been a number of past generations of teachers to compare myself against. In no other generation, as far as I can tell, has teaching been such a lowly profession. At one point I worked as both a high school teacher and an on-call ambulance driver. In many social settings I would just mention the ambulance work (which took a 1 semester course to prepare for) to avoid having people make some rude remark about teachers. One of the posters above is an example of what I mean. Salary is only part of it, many people work at jobs that don't pay well but are respected. Teaching no longer pays well and is no longer respected. Finally, there are some great teachers left in the system. My son had one here in this small town. How they manage to last it out for more than 5 years remains one of those mysteries of dedication that most of us will never understand. I only wish great teachers were the norm and not the exception. -- John Campbell ...!arizona!naucse!jdc CAMPBELL@NAUVAX.bitnet unix? Sure send me a dozen, all different colors.
robk@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Robert Killgore) (01/02/89)
In article <1088@naucse.UUCP>, jdc@naucse.UUCP (John Campbell) writes: > From article <1124@actnyc.UUCP>, by jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man): [much verbage deleted] > % )In article <7.UUL1.3#913@acw.UUCP> scott@acw.UUCP (Scott Guthery) writes: > > Salary is only part of it, many people work at jobs that don't pay well > but are respected. Teaching no longer pays well and is no longer respected. > > Finally, there are some great teachers left in the system. My son had one > here in this small town. How they manage to last it out for more than 5 years > remains one of those mysteries of dedication that most of us will never > understand. I only wish great teachers were the norm and not the exception. > -- > John Campbell ...!arizona!naucse!jdc > CAMPBELL@NAUVAX.bitnet > unix? Sure send me a dozen, all different colors. I am a high school teacher and first want to thank John for his comments because I do not think there is a shortage of good (not great) teachers out there and most that I know are well qualified to teach their subjects That there are problems with education in the US in not a point that I would argue, but I don't think that the problem is as bad as many think it is And for the person who impuned the qualifications of most teachers ( sorry i did not get your name) of the math faculty at my high school we have one with a doctorate in math several with masters in either math or science, and a few like myself with batchelors in math or related fields most with an education minor ( my math started with calc and ended 34 hours later) which when you consider the subjects we teach is a little overkill I taught Algebra 1 and 2 and now teach Computer Math. Are we qualified to teach our subjects?
dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) (01/02/89)
In article <6627@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> robk@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Robert Killgore) writes: >I am a high school teacher and first want to thank John for his >comments because I do not think there is a shortage of good (not great) teachers >out there and most that I know are well qualified to teach their subjects >That there are problems with education in the US in not a point that I would >argue, but I don't think that the problem is as bad as many think it is > >And for the person who impuned the qualifications of most teachers ( sorry >i did not get your name) of the math faculty at my high school we have one >with a doctorate in math several with masters in either math or science, and >a few like myself with batchelors in math or related fields most with an >education minor ( my math started with calc and ended 34 hours later) which >when you consider the subjects we teach is a little overkill I taught Algebra >1 and 2 and now teach Computer Math. Are we qualified to teach our subjects? That's a good question. What does it mean to be qualified to teach a subject? Certainly not just to know the material, or else there would be no problem. Instances of teachers not knowing the material are probably much less frequent and less damaging than instances of incompetent teachers who know the material and are unable to teach effectively for other reasons. [sidebar: on numerous occasions I've known professors to give passable lectures on material with which they weren't intimately familiar. No harm done. It's going to happen in low level courses.] I think one problem is (and I don't mean this as a personal comment) that too many people think they're qualified to teach just because they know the material, or even if they don't. But I think the conclusion that there is a shortage of good teachers is an inevitable consequence of the fact that in a typical classroom setting, even the best teacher can only really target a small percentage of the students. So if this is evenly distributed, then individual people will only be taught well a small percentage of the time. More evidence that there is a shortage: I personally (I think most of the best data on this subject is anecdotal) went to a high school that theoretically wasn't supposed to have these problems.It was a magnet program and a demonstration school (meaning that the teachers were supposed to be of the caliber that they could demonstrate to other teachers). The students were all relatively bright and motivated. Etc. So did we get any better education? Based on my experiences since then, I can safely state that in most instances my high school preparation was poor. So I conclude that there's a shortage of good teachers. What's more likely, I suppose, is a misallocation of teachers. Poor teachers are getting rewarded too often, and getting paired with the brightest students. Good teachers are being put in situations where they can only spend their class time trying to prevent actual felonies from being committed in the classroom itself. -Dan p.s. sorry this note is so disorganized p.p.s. something should still be done about getting this all moved to a new newsgroup. i'd take the votes myself, but i'd never have a chance to count them.
jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man) (01/03/89)
In article <6627@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> robk@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Robert Killgore) writes: )In article <1088@naucse.UUCP>, jdc@naucse.UUCP (John Campbell) writes: )> Salary is only part of it, many people work at jobs that don't pay well )> but are respected. Teaching no longer pays well and is no longer respected. )> )> Finally, there are some great teachers left in the system. My son had one )> here in this small town. How they manage to last it out for more than 5 years )> remains one of those mysteries of dedication that most of us will never )> understand. I only wish great teachers were the norm and not the exception. ) )I am a high school teacher and first want to thank John for his )comments because I do not think there is a shortage of good (not great) teachers Well, I agree with what John says above and don't see how you can claim (well, you don't really claim it, do you?) that it follows from what he says that there is no shortage of good teachers. )out there and most that I know are well qualified to teach their subjects )That there are problems with education in the US in not a point that I would )argue, but I don't think that the problem is as bad as many think it is You are entitled to that opinion but you'd be more convincing if you backed it up somehow. ) )And for the person who impuned the qualifications of most teachers ( sorry )i did not get your name) of the math faculty at my high school we have one )with a doctorate in math several with masters in either math or science, and )a few like myself with batchelors in math or related fields most with an )education minor ( my math started with calc and ended 34 hours later) which )when you consider the subjects we teach is a little overkill I taught Algebra )1 and 2 and now teach Computer Math. Are we qualified to teach our subjects? I don't know if you are or not. Qualification to teach, except maybe in a legal sense, is more than having taken advanced courses. We all know of people who somehow made it through some advanced program (perhaps by memorizing and regurgitating) yet kept their lack of understanding intact. Furthermore, even a deep understanding of a subject doesn't imply the ability to pass on understanding to others. On a university level, some of the most respected researchers can't teach their way out of a paper bag. Teaching is in part an interpersonal skill. Insofar as the cliche that technical people lack social skills is true, they will have difficulty teaching. Is there anyone out there who claims that the ability to teach is given adequate weight in the hiring of teachers? Can you imagine a school system in which the quality of education provided was linked to a school's staying in business? (Well, I don't really advocate the libertarian approach of running schools like businesses because of the 'academic freedom' issues but there is a strong correlation out in the world between what we're willing to pay for something and the respect and attention it's given.) We use the word 'fraud' in the subject line but considering the existance of those dedicated teachers that John pointed out, maybe we get more than we pay for? -- Spaffords Axiom: "The Usenet is not the real world. The Usenet usually does not even resemble the real world." jim (uunet!actnyc!jsb)
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (01/05/89)
The real question is: how do you measure teaching effectiveness? It's
quite easy to measure teaching INeffectiveness, but much of what
teachers teach have no discernible effect for years. It's not just
whether Johnny or Jill can do something he/she couldn't do when the
class began. Teaching is about attitudes; training is about doing.
--
Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334
1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800