pjs269@tijc02.UUCP (Paul Schmidt) (12/22/89)
In doing some research on my Master's Thesis I turned to Mathematic Review. Unfortunately, my thesis does not fit into one of the categories that they have listed. I was relieved to find out that they produced a CD-ROM with the information called MathSci. I went to the librarian to find out if they had this disk. No they didn't. Why? Because it cost $3000! This is an outrageous price for the disk. A CD-ROM costs about $10,000 to master and $2/disk to reproduce. If you would assume that it cost another $10,000 in manpower to create these disks (about one man month) then they are making a killing on these disks! (Especially when you examine the costs of shipping and printing which will be MUCH higher for the book format, which, by the way, costs much less than $3000.) Since it costs less to procude the disks, why aren't they less? The small technical schools and state schools can't afford these prices, and are depriving the students with one of the best breakthroughs in research. (It would be quicker for me to drive to the nearest school that does have the disk than to do the research using the books, and that school may be 6 hours away!)
arny@cbnewsl.ATT.COM (arny.b.engelson) (12/28/89)
In article <829@tijc02.UUCP> pjs269@tijc02.UUCP (Paul Schmidt) writes: >In doing some research on my Master's Thesis I turned to >Mathematic Review. Unfortunately, my thesis does not fit >into one of the categories that they have listed. I was >relieved to find out that they produced a CD-ROM with the >information called MathSci. I went to the librarian to >find out if they had this disk. No they didn't. Why? >Because it cost $3000! >This is an outrageous price for the disk. A CD-ROM costs >about $10,000 to master and $2/disk to reproduce. If you >would assume that it cost another $10,000 in manpower to >create these disks (about one man month) then they are >making a killing on these disks! (Especially when you >examine the costs of shipping and printing which will be >MUCH higher for the book format, which, by the way, costs >much less than $3000.) So? What gave you the idea that selling price has anything to do with production cost? It doesn't. You should take a few more Economics/business classes. Selling price depends on what people will pay. The object is to make the most money, not to sell the most CDs. (Note: I'm no expert, and a lot is left out here, but you get the idea.) >Since it costs less to procude the disks, why aren't they >less? The small technical schools and state schools can't >afford these prices, and are depriving the students with >one of the best breakthroughs in research. (It would be >quicker for me to drive to the nearest school that does >have the disk than to do the research using the books, >and that school may be 6 hours away!) Bingo! Now you've told us (part of the reason) why the CDs are more expensive. If you're willing to drive 6 hours to use the CD instead of the books, that CD is worth a lot more than the books. Therefore, (some) people are willing to pay more for it. (There's also probably little or no competition; it's a new/sexy technology; probably a limited market; etc.) The sad part is: you are right. Students (and others) are losing out because of the high price. It's a shame. Hey, I got an idea: why don't you start a competing firm, raise some money, master the CD, and sell it cheap!
rsc@altair.uucp (Steve Cunningham) (12/29/89)
> In article <829@tijc02.UUCP> pjs269@tijc02.UUCP (Paul Schmidt) writes: > In doing some research on my Master's Thesis I turned to > Mathematic Review...[remarks on missing MathSci]..Because it cost $3000! > > This is an outrageous price for the disk. A CD-ROM costs > about $10,000 to master and $2/disk to reproduce. If you > would assume that it cost another $10,000 in manpower to > create these disks (about one man month) then they are > making a killing on these disks! As I understand the nature of MathSci and Mathematics Reviews, there are three cost factors involved. The first is the cost of running MR's (as we called them when I was in the MathBiz and reviewed for them) -- this is quite high, and MR's probably ran a deficit in the American Mathematical Society publications budget (personal guess). The second is the cost of actually preparing the CD-ROM, and I'll bet there's some fairly good indexing and direct access programming on it -- I have *serious* doubts about the "one man month" assumption! This is programming -- and that's never cheap. The third is a personal guess that there is a third party involved in the works somewhere, that this is a commercial concern, and that they don't work free. At any rate, the implication of the original posting is that the AMS is ripping off the mathematical public (THERE's an oxymoron!) by charging too much for this disk. I strongly doubt this, since the AMS is a professional organization with open books, and such organizations are very sensitive to the benefit/cost ratio. Oh, do I think that $3000 is a lot of money? You bet! We certainly do not have this disk (or, to put it more correctly, this *service*, since it probably involved updates as well, and it is the service that's being paid for). But I don't think it's as simple as the posting suggests. Disclaimer: I am not now a member of the American Mathematical Society, am not associated in any way with this project, and may not know all the details I suggest above.
chris@mimsy.umd.edu (Chris Torek) (12/29/89)
In article <829@tijc02.UUCP> pjs269@tijc02.UUCP (Paul Schmidt) writes: >[$3000] is an outrageous price for [a] disk. A CD-ROM costs >about $10,000 to master and $2/disk to reproduce. ... No comment about the outrageousness, etc. However, unless there is some substantial difference between mastering a CD-ROM and mastering a regular (music) CD, these costs are too high. A run of 1000 CDs will cost a band around $4k: $2k for the master and $2/disk. The price per disk goes down as the number of disks goes up. (It might be $1k for the master; I forget. Anyway, they are cheap to make.) As someone suggested in a followup: this is an ideal chance for you to make money. Accrete some investors (Venture Capitalists) and go into business selling CD-ROMs for $10/CD.... -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@cs.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris
lrccon@ux.acs.umn.edu (Philip Arny) (12/29/89)
A note about CD-ROM costs: what you are buying with that large sum is NOT the physical CD-ROM, the cost of mastering & pressing it, or even the cost of writing the retrieval software (though all of those are part of the cost); what you are buying is the INFORMATION on the disk, collected, collated, and indexed for ease of access. Go ask a librarian how much Chemical Abstracts or the Science Citation Index costs, if you want a shock. Makes most CD-ROMs look like pocket change. Philip Arny
edm002@muvms3.bitnet (12/29/89)
In article <3430@cbnewsl.ATT.COM>, arny@cbnewsl.ATT.COM (arny.b.engelson) writes: > In article <829@tijc02.UUCP> pjs269@tijc02.UUCP (Paul Schmidt) writes: >>In doing some research on my Master's Thesis I turned to >>Mathematic Review. Unfortunately, my thesis does not fit >>into one of the categories that they have listed. I was >>relieved to find out that they produced a CD-ROM with the >>information called MathSci. I went to the librarian to >>find out if they had this disk. No they didn't. Why? >>Because it cost $3000! And I assume that's not counting the dedicated PC and CD-ROM reader that the library must acquire. Plus, there's been little work until recently on standardizing the operating systems of these little devils. By comparison, if you're running some software on your IBM PC, and you exit back to the A> prompt (or c> or whatever), someone can come along and run a totally different software package without so much as a murmur. Not so on the CD-ROMs, at least the way they were originally marketed. The software controlling MathSci probably would not operate ERIC or MEDLINE or CINAHL. So, at least in the early days, libraries were looking at the prospects of a room full of PCs, each dedicated to a particular CD-ROM service. Which of the services should the library buy? Well, they're not going to buy more than 1 or 2, unless they're a big-bucks sci-tech/engineering outfit with money to spare. So, even if the diskettes cost $2 each, the market is not as wide open as, for example, the market for phonograph records--or music CDs, for that matter. There is a lot of hardware cost up front to the library, and a commitment to a particular supplier of CD-ROM products [reminds me of the TRS-80 vertical-integration story, in a way]. As I understand, co-operation among CD-ROM producers was definitely *not* chic in the early days, although I have heard that [as with railroad track guage, computer operating systems, and everything else] some winners are emerging into a default common system. > > The object is to make the most money, not to sell the > most CDs. (Note: I'm no expert, and a lot is left out here, but > you get the idea.) And, they were sold by dedicating hardware/software configurations for libraries--making it impossible to run a competitor's products. > (There's also probably little or no competition; it's a new/sexy > technology; probably a limited market; etc.) > > The sad part is: you are right. Students (and others) are losing > out because of the high price. It's a shame. Hey, I got an idea: > why don't you start a competing firm, raise some money, master the > CD, and sell it cheap! Good luck. And remember, avoid what FORBES magazine calls "Chinese marketing": thinking, "If there are 4 billion people in China, and each one drinks one Coca-Cola every day, then...." The market is a whole lot more than counting the number of libraries or math majors or subscribers to an index. How should I know? I'm a librarian. -- edm002@muvms3.bitnet,Marshall University Fred R. Reenstjerna | I stick my neck out 400 Hal Greer Blvd | for no one. Huntington, WV 25755 | ---Humphrey Bogart (304)696 - 2905 | CASABLANCA, 1943
ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) (12/30/89)
CD-ROM is about the same as music CDs as far as cost goes. I've got a document here that Apple sent to all Apple developers pushing CD ROM and it tells what the costs are: 100 CD-ROMs cost about $1700 + $2/additional disk The easy way to make one is to just put all your data on a hard disk and send it to one of several companies that make CD-ROM, and 5 to 10 days later, you'll have yours CD-ROMs back. The harder way to make a CD-ROM involves making a tape that you send to the pressing company. This is a lot more work, but you get to put stuff like audio on the disk if you want this way. This kind of disk will cost you more initially, because you have to buy or rent the equipment to make the tape. Tim Smith ps: I don't remember where I saw this, but I think there was a company that was offering to do small CD-ROM runs for something like $500 for mastering and 10 disks.
ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) (12/30/89)
< making a killing on these disks! (Especially when you < examine the costs of shipping and printing which will be < MUCH higher for the book format, which, by the way, costs < much less than $3000.) < ... < less? The small technical schools and state schools can't < afford these prices, and are depriving the students with < one of the best breakthroughs in research. (It would be < quicker for me to drive to the nearest school that does < have the disk than to do the research using the books, < and that school may be 6 hours away!) [ enter off-the-wall speculation mode ] Hmmm. Maybe this is why they charge so much. If one school buys the disk, then it's quicker for people within six hours of that school to drive there and use the disk rather than use the books at their own school. So when they sell one disk, they risk having all schools within six hours stop buying the books, so maybe they price the disk high enough to make up for lost book sales? Maybe they should drop the books and price the CD-ROM at what the books now cost. Tim Smith
lrccon@ux.acs.umn.edu (Philip Arny) (01/03/90)
Remember -- what you're paying for is not the CD-ROM disk, but the information and indexing on the disk. That is what costs so much, because MOST of that is done by humans, still. Philip Arny Bio-Medical Library University of Minnesota