siegel@stsci.EDU (Howard Siegel) (07/11/90)
Thanks to all who responded to my posting requesting information about Jim Joyce's Unix Bookstore. I got 10 responses with information, 1 request for their address, and 1 response that my posting did not belong in that particular newsgroup. (Maybe I had too high hopes, but I expected a bigger response.) The results tended to lean toward the negative. Some folks had very good service while others had extremely bad service, both in terms of Jim and others who work there and in terms of prices, availability, promptness of delivery, etc. Some thought Jim was very knowledgeable and helpful while some had much harsher words. In general, the good service was just what one would typically expect while the bad service seemed extremely bad. My horror story is... On March 15 '90 based on a review by Jim, and the 10% discount he offered to first time customers, I called his bookstore to order a book. I was told that the book was not in stock but the shipment was due real soon and I could probably expect to have the book in my hands in about 3 weeks. On April 17 I called back to find out the status of my order, expecting that the delay was caused by a late shipment from the publisher. Instead I was told that there was no record of my order nor was there any record of a shipment to me or the city where I live. Given that they said the book was now definitely in stock, they would ship one out that day. On May 22 I called again and got the same story about not finding an order and that a copy would be shipped that day. I also called the credit card company to confirm that there had not been any charges posted. On June 11 I called back and for the first time I talked to Jim Joyce himself, and guess what, no record of any order or shipment. Well, there still was the 10% discount and after a fair amount of flaming, Jim reduced the shipping charges, so I gave him one more chance. The book finally showed up late the following week. I wasn't in any rush to get the book, but I wasn't prepared to wait for 4 months. I can understand if the publisher is having problems getting books out or if the distributer can't keep them in stock, but I want to be told about it. What I can not understand is how an order can be lost 3 times. Jim's story was that he was in the process of reorganizing the book store because problems like mine were beginning to happen too often and he was loosing mail order business. Of course I started asking about this place only after I ordered something and began having problems. Given the information I received, I would not have started with Jim Joyce's in the first place. Now that I have had some experience with the place, I'll have to think long and hard about giving them any more business. For the brave, here is the address and phone number: Jim Joyce's UNIX Bookstore 139 Noe Street San Francisco, CA 94114 415-626-7581 Alternate sources recommended in some of the responses are: Stanford University. Special Order desk: 1-800-533-2670 Large selection (not just UNIX). Good return policy. Will ship same day via Federal Express overnight delivery. Computer Literacy Sunnyvale CA: 408-730-9555 San Jose CA: 408-435-1118 Better prices, better selection (not just UNIX). No catalog. Cucumber Bookshop 5611 Kraft Drive Rockville MD 20852 301-881-2722 (voice) 301-468-2920 (fax) Small store front. Primarily UNIX and C. No shipping charges for prepaid orders. 24 hour ordering via fax. Orders shipped within 24 hours. Seems to have a pretty liberal return policy. Catalog available. O'Reilly & Associates 632 Petaluma Avenue Sebastopol CA 95472 1-800-338-6887 (1-800-533-6887 in CA) Publisher. Primarily UNIX and X windows. Catalog available.
lauther@janus.Berkeley.EDU (Ulrich Lauther) (07/11/90)
In article <1581@stsci.edu> siegel@stsci.EDU (Howard Siegel) writes: > >My horror story is... On March 15 '90 based on a review by Jim, and the >10% discount he offered to first time customers, I called his bookstore to >order a book. I was told that the book was not in stock but the shipment [long horror story deleted] This lets my ask a question that has been nagging me for a long time: Why is it that in civilized countries a bookstore gets you a book that is not in stock typically within 24 hours, but not so in the US? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ulrich Lauther Internet: lauther@janus.berkeley.edu Siemens / UCB ph: +1 415 642 3338 fax: 642 2739 +1 415 658 8529 home
petersja@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (james peterson) (07/11/90)
In article <37505@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> lauther@janus.berkeley.edu (Ulrich Lauther) writes: > >Why is it that in civilized countries a bookstore gets you a book that is >not in stock typically within 24 hours, but not so in the US? > Isn't it obvious? You've answered your own question. The US is *not* a civilized country. -- james lee peterson petersja@handel.cs.colostate.edu dept. of computer science colorado state university "Some ignorance is invincible." ft. collins, colorado 80523
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (07/11/90)
In article <1581@stsci.edu> siegel@stsci.EDU (Howard Siegel) writes: >The results tended to lean toward the negative. Some folks had very good >service while others had extremely bad service... In fairness, my understanding is that Jim has had both personal and (non-bookstore) financial problems in the recent past, and a fair fraction of this is "factors beyond our control" rather than incompetence or malice. Of course, if your book is late, your book is late, and you may not be too interested in all the horrible reasons... -- NFS is a wonderful advance: a Unix | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology filesystem with MSDOS semantics. :-( | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
goudreau@larrybud.rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) (07/12/90)
In article <7858@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, petersja@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (james peterson) writes: > > > >Why is it that in civilized countries a bookstore gets you a book that is > >not in stock typically within 24 hours, but not so in the US? > > > Isn't it obvious? You've answered your own question. The US is *not* a > civilized country. Come now, let's be fair. Most of those other "civilized countries" are much smaller geographically than the US, so it's not surprising that bookstores are generally much closer (in distance and in travel time) to their distributors. In the US, it's quite possible for a bookstore- in-need to be 3000 miles away from the appropriate warehouse. Even so, it still might be possible to get 24-hour turnaround here. But are you willing to pay more for the overnight Federal Express delivery charge than for the book itself? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Goudreau +1 919 248 6231 Data General Corporation 62 Alexander Drive goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 ...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau USA
jaap@mtxinu.COM (Jaap Akkerhuis) (07/12/90)
Please note that to my knowledge usenix doesn't endorse any bookshop, so comp.org.usenix (or many of the other cross posted groups) is not really the place to discuss the merits of bookshops etc. I would suggest followups to comp.consumers, jaap
lauther@janus.Berkeley.EDU (Ulrich Lauther) (07/12/90)
In article <CBL4P_G@xds8.ferranti.com> jeffd@ficc.ferranti.com (jeff daiell) writes: [original quote deleted] > >Many of those countries are small enough that books can get from >publisher to bookstore pretty quickly. Here, however, the publisher >may be in New York, and the bookstore in Hilo, Hawaii, so a quick >delivery by moped is out. > This does not really explain the situation. Of course I would understand and accept a delay which growths linearly with the size of the country, translating 24 hours into a few days, but not into weeks. In the countries I was referring to, the bookstore does not have to go to the publisher, rather there is an efficient network of dealers inbetween. Probably this should be carried on - if at all - in another newsgroup. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ulrich Lauther Internet: lauther@janus.berkeley.edu Siemens / UCB ph: +1 415 642 3338 fax: 642 2739 +1 415 658 8529 home
ritchie@hpdmd48.HP.COM (David Ritchie) (07/12/90)
>This lets my ask a question that has been nagging me for a long time: > >Why is it that in civilized countries a bookstore gets you a book that is >not in stock typically within 24 hours, but not so in the US? > 1) Mileage between cities is greater than in Europe. 2) Bookstores tend to do ordering in sufficent quantities to get larger price breaks and/or free shipping. Depending on the size of store, this may be weekly or less. 3) Tax structures in the U.S. in recent years have discouraged wholesalers from maintaining large stocks of slow moving books (inventory taxes, etc.) 4) Most transport is handled thru truck lines, which are typically hubbed in regional transfer centers. Packages may change trucks multiple times in route. Cross country by truck is at least 3 days, assuming around the clock driving and fresh drivers being available when DOT requires that a new driver is needed. 5) Many books go by book rate, which is not the fastest way to get things from point A to point B. Dave
jeremy@mips.COM (Jeremy M. Schneider) (07/12/90)
In article <1581@stsci.edu> siegel@stsci.EDU (Howard Siegel) writes: > > Computer Literacy > > Sunnyvale CA: 408-730-9555 ^^^^ Correction: 408-730-9955 -- Jeremy M. Schneider jeremy@mips.com MIPS Computer Systems {ames,decwrl,prls}!mips!jeremy 930 Arques Avenue Sunnyvale, CA 94086 408-524-8105 (work)
scott@nbc1.ge.com (Scott Barman) (07/18/90)
Just one question: Why use any of these mail order companies to get
books anyway? I could understand if there was a significant discount,
but by the time you pay for shipping, etc. the savings are minimal. I
have never had a problem walking into (say) a B. Dalton's and ordering
any book they didn't have in stock--and I've never paid shipping charges
either.
--
scott barman NBC Systems Development
scott@nbc1.ge.com 30 Rockerfeller Plaza, Room 1615W
{philabs,crdgw1}!nbc1!scott New York, NY 10112 +1 212/664-2787
(This does not represent any [un]official opinions of NBC or its affiliates)ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) (07/23/90)
In <1990Jul17.174054.29575@nbc1.ge.com> scott@nbc1.ge.com (Scott Barman) writes: >Just one question: Why use any of these mail order companies to get >books anyway? I could understand if there was a significant discount, >but by the time you pay for shipping, etc. the savings are minimal. I >have never had a problem walking into (say) a B. Dalton's and ordering >any book they didn't have in stock--and I've never paid shipping charges >either. I think the big incentive for a lot of mail order business is sales tax. If a retailer has offices in only one state, then it doesn't have to collect sales taxes on orders from the other 49. Legally, customers are supposed to report their out-of-state mail-order purchases, but nobody does, and the states would hardly find it profitable to prosecute thousands of <$100 tax cases, assuming they ever even find out about them! There's another, more legitimate difference. B. Dalton employees are not long on computer expertise (though they no longer think that Unix is a programming language!), and can't give you much help on selecting books. Specialized mail order firms often work very hard in that department. Except for a misguided bookclub membership, I've never purchased books thatway (in SiliValley lots of bookstores with fair-to-good computer sections, not to mention a small chain with nothing *but*), but PC Connection's employees are a lot more knowledgable than those of Egghead Discount Software! -- ergo@netcom.uucp Isaac Rabinovitch atina!pyramid!apple!netcom!ergo Silicon Valley, CA uunet!mimsy!ames!claris!netcom!ergo "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know!" -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
davidsen@antarctica.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen) (07/23/90)
In article <12565@netcom.UUCP>, ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes: |> There's another, more legitimate difference. B. Dalton employees are |> not long on computer expertise (though they no longer think that Unix |> is a programming language!), and can't give you much help on selecting |> books. Specialized mail order firms often work very hard in that |> department. I have to agree. I've called Jim Joyce on the phone and asked for title suggestions (not recently) and he gave me useful titles in both cases. Not necessarily the *best* titles, but not a waste of money. None of my local bookstores seem to do that, even at schools.
lwall@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Larry Wall) (07/24/90)
In article <12565@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes:
: There's another, more legitimate difference. B. Dalton employees are
: not long on computer expertise (though they no longer think that Unix
: is a programming language!), and can't give you much help on selecting
: books.
That's interesting. I think Unix IS a programming language. A big,
complicated, hard-to-learn, not-very-portable, highly undisciplined
language with several alternate syntaxes--an unholy, convulsing, constantly
mutating mixture of minimalism and pluralism--an entire ecosystem of
programming.
That doesn't mean I don't like it, of course. :-)
And THAT doesn't mean I won't try to change it.
Somewhere there's got to be a balance between "I love you just the way
you are" and "Be all that you can be".
But when you start looking at Unix as a language, it gets a little ugly.
Larry Wall
lwall@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.govpjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (07/24/90)
lwall@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Larry Wall) writes: |That's interesting. I think Unix IS a programming language. A big, |complicated, hard-to-learn, not-very-portable, highly undisciplined |language with several alternate syntaxes--an unholy, convulsing, constantly |mutating mixture of minimalism and pluralism--an entire ecosystem of |programming. hmmm, kinda sorta justa little like perl? note that i said kinda sorta. particularly the unholy convulsing constantly mutating part. kinda sorta.
lwall@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Larry Wall) (07/24/90)
In article <31315@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) writes: : lwall@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Larry Wall) writes: : : |That's interesting. I think Unix IS a programming language. A big, : |complicated, hard-to-learn, not-very-portable, highly undisciplined : |language with several alternate syntaxes--an unholy, convulsing, constantly : |mutating mixture of minimalism and pluralism--an entire ecosystem of : |programming. : : hmmm, kinda sorta justa little like perl? note that i said kinda sorta. : : particularly the unholy convulsing constantly mutating part. : : kinda sorta. But kinda sorta disciplined, compared to Unix. At least you can figure out what patchlevel you're at, so's you know what features are available. And Perl is structured to allow the addition of new thingies without much impact on old scripts. And it only changes as fast as I think I can understand it, not as fast as a bazillion hackers think they can understand it. Therein lies Unix's strength, and Unix's weakness. But there are certainly some resemblances between Unix and Perl, not all of them entirely accidental. :-) Larry
kucharsk@number6.Solbourne.COM (William Kucharski) (07/24/90)
In article <1990Jul17.174054.29575@nbc1.ge.com> scott@nbc1.GE.COM (Scott Barman) writes: >Just one question: Why use any of these mail order companies to get >books anyway? I could understand if there was a significant discount, >but by the time you pay for shipping, etc. the savings are minimal. I >have never had a problem walking into (say) a B. Dalton's and ordering >any book they didn't have in stock--and I've never paid shipping charges >either. Mostly that, even if the book is in their warehouse, most chain book stores will take a week or two to get you a book, even longer if the warehouse doesn't have it in stock (usually on the order of magnitude of a month). By calling, say, Computer Literacy in San Jose, if they have it in stock they'll ship it to you. If you're really anxious you can pay the $$ and have it shipped next or second day air; otherwise you'll have it within 1.5 weeks at most via UPS ground. -- =============================================================================== | Internet: kucharsk@Solbourne.COM | William Kucharski | | uucp: ...!{boulder,sun,uunet}!stan!kucharsk | Solbourne Computer, Inc. | = The opinions above are mine alone and NOT those of Solbourne Computer, Inc. =