brad@sqwest.sq.com (Brad Might) (08/09/90)
(long post) My original posting was a query regarding obtaining a Masters yet continuing to work full time. It also asked about a correspondence institute called American Institute for Computer Science. No replies came from anyone who has experienced AI for CS. I have summarized responses below. Some people requested anonymity so I have removed all names. > In article <1990Aug3.005036.20679@sqwest.sq.com> you write: > >What is the signifigance of being accredited. > > This question is a bit of a red herring. Some very fine degree programs > (e.g. MIT) are not accredited. Acredation requires that you jump through > a bunch of hoops set up by a professional society and conform with their > committee's consensus view of what a suitable curriculum entails. But, that > curricular vision is always N years behind what premier schools like MIT are > doing. Why should they give up their leadership position and follow, just > so they can say they are acredited? Who would value an MIT degree any more > because it had a stamp of approval on it? On the other hand, there are > completely junk schools, mail order and otherwise, that are not acredited, > not because they are leading the pack, or following a valid but individualist > path, but just because they aren't up to snuff. [I suspect the school you > mention is in this latter category.] My point: don't pay any attention to > the acredation, just look at the quality of the program. Also, there are > two levels of acredation: specific degree programs are acredited by the > professional societies, wheras schools as a whole are acredited by regional > or national associations of schools. This latter just provides a coarse-grain > sanity check that the school isn't a complete rip-off house. It sounds like > your candidate may not even have this latter kind of acredation ("membership" > is more accurate), which *is* a bit of a danger sign. > ******* > > a) Avoid nonaccredited schools (especially in computer science). > > b) Avoid correspondence course degrees if you possibly can. They're > looked down on somewhat (whether that's fair or not); but perhaps more > important, unless you're an unusually motivated and responsible > individual, you'll just get more stimulus and motivation out of being > in a "live" classroom. ******* > Your Masters degree in CS will be worthless unless it is done at an > accredited university. Also, I think that a PhD-granting university > would count it AGAINST you if your M.S. were at a mail-order school. > So, I encourage you to "grab the bull by the horns" and get into a > respectable, accredited program. > ********** > >What does it mean to get a degree from them, > >did they have to meet some standards or can anyone > >set themselves up to hand out degrees ? > > The latter is essentially the truth. The above mentioned regional or national > associations enforce some coarse-grained standards on their members for what > a degree at each level must be, but that doesn't apply for a non-member. The > only *legal* standards (in the US, remember) as far as I know are very general > fraud laws. If the rip-off were incredibly blatant, you could get them for > mail fraud. They are, however, presumably sharp enough to keep their asses > covered. In fact, the statement that they are non-acredited is likely just > such a piece of ass coverage. > > >Having looked at their curriculum for the Masters degree > >from this institute, > >it seems as though a lot (probably upwards of 75%) of > >the content I have already covered via my Bachelor > >degree, or through my own personal study. > >It seems to be a general schooling for anyone interested > >in computer science rather than something much more > >advanced that what I have already taken. In fact > >if I had had room in my schedule during my last year > >of school I could have taken equivalent courses and thus > >taking this Masters degree would have been meaningless > >in terms of education except for perhaps being a formal > >review. > > > >If it was new and interesting (to me) material, then > >I would be interested in it regardless of degree > >conferred merely to further my education. > > > >If I take this course of study then: > > > >Can I say I have a Masters Degree in Computer Science ? > >Is this recognized by other schools (for example to get > >into a Phd program somewhere) or would I be laughed at ? > > Yes you could say it, but yes you would get laughed at. > (And not just by academia; industry would as well.) > A good guideline is to never take a degree that is worthless > to you in the hopes that it will be worth something to someone > else: they are almost certain to concur with you judgement. > Firstly, because they independently have likely formed the > same opinion, and secondly, because they can sense your own > opinion however clever you may be at trying to hide it. > Contrariwise, furthering your education, even by non-degree > means like reading a book, can positively influence your > academic and career success: admissions and hiring people > have ways of telling what someone knows independent of > credentials. So, follow your conscience. > > >Should I expect more compensation at work for being > >"more qualified" ? > > Unlikely, in my experience. Sometimes it can be leveraged > off of as an excuse if you are having trouble demanding more > of your boss on your own merits, or if your boss is having > trouble justifying it to his boss (this latter is a real > issue). However, the boss or boss's bos is only likely to > approve it if they would have anyway on your own merits: the > degree just serves as an occasion for bringing it before them. > > >Would this help me in a job search, > >ie. would I be looked upon favourably or for a higher > >position or salary because of this "extra qualification" ? > > Even more unlikely, in my experience. > ****** > c) A masters degree in CS _is_ regarded as a valid and useful degree > generally. > > d) It sounds as though, if you're prepared to change jobs for a > while, a coop program at some school might be just the thing for you. > You might also ask your employer: what about a leave of absence? > > e) You'd probably do well if you could track down any professors you > can get ahold of, in your local area, or at your undergrad school, or > anywhere else; and just ask if you could discuss your career thinking > with them and get their advice. They may have insights that will help > you. > ************ > > I too thought of expanding my formal education, not once but twice. > > The first time was with my alma mata (ukc). This was when I had been > in the work force for about 3 years. My old department and profs > gave me the tour, convivality and all. When as asked "Well?" they > said yes, they would love to have someone with industrial experence > come back to teach. The next half hour was spent clearing the > confusion. No they wouldn't offer me postgrad, yes they would offer > me a job at less than I was then making. > > I turned them down. > > Eight years later, as a manager of my own firm, I decided I needed > more business accumen. I enquired at UofT about MBA for "seniors" > (now in my 30's). Only full time courses were offer, but they would > be glad to have me. I looked over the sylabus; it was about 6 months > work by my standards if I did it full time. I could understand the 3 > years they were asking if it was an evening course once or twice a > week. > > Again I said no. > > Now, 5 years on, I found I made the right decision both times. > Much of post graduate education serves only two purposes: > > 1) keeping people of the work-force so the employment > statistics look good > (If you don't believe me, go along to a sociology depatment > coffee room and ask, informally of course) > > 2) Keeping up membership standards. > Here in Toronto the realtor's exam is being extended to a > 3 year course. I have some friend who took it when it > was a 3 month course - at night school, one evening a > week. The board make it quite clear, the market is > getting flooded and they have to maintain the salaries of > their members, which they can't do in a free market > economy if there is a glut of realtors. > > -------------- > > In summary: > > If your been through your BS (or BSc) they you know how to study > intelligently. Take Long's axiom to heart: you can learn anything > if you put your heart to it. The alternative is to become a > perpetual student, or some other kind of social parasite. > > This is distinct from retraining. I have a friend who is an old > COBOL master who is learning COBOL because his company is moving to > UNIX. There is a difference. One is driven by real economic change, > the other by a with to collect "gongs". > > > I've got nothing against accademia, it does a good job. > I just notice what the japs are doing, their ratio of engineers at > various levels, MBA's and lawyers, their methods of managment and > retraining. I wonder what ever happened to "Yankee Ingenuity" and the > people who founded the philosophy of Pragamatism ? > > Me? I was born in Hong Kong of British parents, when to school in > England, emigrated to Canada after working in California, Brussels, > France and Scandinavia. I run my own company and have a great deal of > control over my own lifestyle, probably more than people with three > degrees and a salary twice mine. > > YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT IN LIFE FIRST. > Maybe it is academic gongs, but the way you phrased your article > sounds too much like asking for support for what the psych's call > "Avoidance Behavior". > > Anyway, that's my experience. > > Oh, nearly forgot. I did take one course. it cost me about $800 and > was worth more than my initial degree to me. It was a Dale Carneegie > course. Its not psychology, its about dealing with objectives. > Unlike the half day courses its long enough to reinforce the practice. > I'd recommend that, to get the self confidence to make the decision > about the post graduate. They're in your phone book. > ******** > Check out the National Technological University at (303) 484-6050. > This accreditated institution offers only master's degree in various > engineering and computer science areas. NTU is a consurtium(sp?) of nationally > recognized university offering graduate level courses through satellite > TV. I think one can view them on videotape too. The courses are definately > grad level. > > ************* > > >I would like to hear opinions & experiences of going to graduate > >school on a full-time vs. part-time basis. I have heard that it > >is very difficult to pursue a graduate degree while holding a > full-time > >job. > > I'd suggest that if you are moving _up_ from previously pure student > status (especially purely undergrad), with little or no previous > experience in industry, then a co-op program (where you work part > time, go to school part time) can be good, both in giving you > motivation and experience and also income (assuming the job you will > have is interesting and stimulating in and of itself). I don't say > this is necessarily better or worse than full-time study toward the > same degree goal (usually an MS degree), just that it is at least one > good way to do things. > > If on the other hand you are moving _back_ from some years of > full-time industrial experience to return to school -- and especially > if you have acquired responsibilities like a spouse, children, or > significant job responsibilities -- then returning to school on a part > time basis can be rather hard (and really hard if what you really mean > is work full time, study in your "spare" time). > > Even promises of a reduced load at work while you're taking courses > can be risky -- the promise may hold only until the first crisis comes > up at work, and you're suddenly needed to help put out the fire. > Having to do work-related travel during the academic semester is also > a real problem -- it's very easy to get behind, and much harder to > catch up. > > A pure economic analysis says, if the added study will raise your > salary, then get it over with as rapidly as possible, and start > drawing the benefits. > > A disadvantage of coop or part time study is less contact -- possibly > much less -- with fellow students, which can be a sizable part of the > learning experience. > > Finally, if you are returning to school after some period in industry, > you'll find that you're ahead in having familiarity with the practical > jargon of that field -- if someone says "loading down the input to the > preamp" you'll know what they mean -- and you'll have more feel for > practical numbers. But don't underestimate that, in a sense, you will > have gotten "out of shape" academically: you probably haven't been > doing analytical problem sets on a regular basis, and the curriculum > has probably evolved, so that the prerequisite courses you took 5 > years ago and think you know aren't quite the same as the way the same > courses are taught now. > > In any event, good luck! You'll enjoy it. > *********** > >I am interested in other ways to obtain a Masters > >degree. > > > >Are there other correspondence courses by which I could > >obtain a Masters Degree ? What are they like. > > Columbia Pacific University, San Rafael, CA, the most highly-regarded > independent-study college in the country (my boss researched it). > (415) 459-1650 FAX: (415) 459-5856 > > They'll mail you a catalog and other stuff if you call them. > *************** > I haven't looked into this at all, but you might want to look into > NTU (National Technological University) which operates out of > Ft. Colins Colorado I believe. They offer satellite and video tape > courses from U.S. universities in computer science and electrical > engineering as "for credit" courses. That is, a university may have > a course in numerical methods and have it video taped every lecture. > NTU would then transmit this course via satellite. Homework is > also graded and handled somehow and there are exams also proctored > somehow. > > Usually this is done through a big company (say IBM) that has a > satellite dish at its site and pays for this for the employees. > It may be possible for someone with a sattelite dish to take this > individually, I don't know. > > The only reason I know anything about this is that the University > of Minnesota in Minneapolis has a low powered microwave system that > has operated for maybe 20 years. It allows certain classes to be > broadcast and picked up by employers in the area for a $80 per > credit surcharge. Some of these classes have been picked up and > transmitted by NTU. > > On a personal level, I have been taking some C.S. classes at night > and via this T.V. I have a 10 yr old degree in another field. > I have had problems getting accepted even part time by the > University of Minnesota. I have 3 As, 3 Bs in my 6 graduate > C.S. courses so far and 76% on the computer science GRE. > > Despite T.V. and newspaper stories about the "shortage" of > computer science students, there are other sides to this story > I have come across talking to students. At some universities > the only reason for the existence of the faculty is to do research. > If they don't, they don't get tenure and they are no longer faculty. > To do research and publish they require slaves (graduate students). > The best slaves are full time students going for the PhD. They > will work long hours and pay for the privilige, receiving credits > in return. When they do work for money, they often jump at the > chance to work as teaching assistants for less than what janitors > make at the same school. > > People with full time jobs don't make such good slaves and for > that reason often aren't welcomed at some institutions. It may > be easier for foreign students to be accepted if they look like > like they will help the faculty out with their research better > than a local student. I am not bashing foreign students here. > They are bright, work hard, and are often better prepared > mathematically than U.S. students. > -- Brad Might brad@sqwest.sq.com SoftQuad Inc. brad@sq.sq.com {utzoo,uunet}!sq!brad 321-9801 King George Hwy. Surrey, BC. V3T 5H5 (604) 585-1999