zjrs10@gpss14.trc.amoco.com (J. Rusty Sandschaper) (09/07/90)
Companies and organizations have traditionally classified individuals
as either professionals or non-professionals. The measure of which has
usually been based on a 4+ yr. degree. As non-professionals obtain
experience and training in computer programming and usage the following
questions arise.
Can these individuals at some point become professionals?
What level of experience and knowledge is required in order to make
the transition.
How can a company measure these qualities and be assured that the
individuals seeking to cross ladders have the necessary knowledge and
skills?
Are there any standards other than a degree by which to measure?
Are there any respected organizations which perform testing?
What are the implications with regard to degreed professionals?reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach) (09/10/90)
In article <1991@apctrc.UUCP> zjrs10@gpss14.trc.amoco.com (J. Rusty Sandschaper) writes: > Companies and organizations have traditionally classified individuals >as either professionals or non-professionals. The measure of which has >usually been based on a 4+ yr. degree. As non-professionals obtain >experience and training in computer programming and usage the following >questions arise. > Can these individuals at some point become professionals? I don't think it is a question of can they, they do. Many companies do employ non-degreed professionals. In addition, there are a great many people in programming positions who have degrees in other disciplines as well. > What level of experience and knowledge is required in order to make >the transition. Many wonder if a four year CS degree is a decent requirement to be a professional. > How can a company measure these qualities and be assured that the >individuals seeking to cross ladders have the necessary knowledge and >skills? As long as the demand for programming talent far exceeds the supply, no one will care. > Are there any standards other than a degree by which to measure? There are certification tests, but I have yet to hear of anyone who takes them seriously, either employers or employees. > Are there any respected organizations which perform testing? No. > What are the implications with regard to degreed professionals? Good question. I used to think that a CS degree was a requirement for being a decent professional. I thought that the problems of any organization would be minimized by requiring that all project team members hold a CS degree. While I think this would have effectively weeded out many people who should not have been in the profession, there are still many out there with CS degrees who haven't a clue as to what they are doing. In addition, I have seen people without degrees who are just as qualified to be a professional as those with degrees. It is rare, but it happens. George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne reggie@paradyne.com Mail stop LG-133 Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA
lmebgo@eds.ericsson.se (Bengt G{llmo, L M Ericsson, Stockholm, Sweden) (09/11/90)
In article <1991@apctrc.UUCP>, zjrs10@gpss14.trc.amoco.com (J. Rusty Sandschaper) writes: > Companies and organizations have traditionally classified individuals > as either professionals or non-professionals. The measure of which has > usually been based on a 4+ yr. degree. As non-professionals obtain > experience and training in computer programming and usage the following > questions arise. > > Can these individuals at some point become professionals? > ..... As an aside, I wonder if it has occurred to you that people who have not grown up in that tradition, when they first run into it may find it strange and possibly insulting to 'non-professionals'. My secretary is a professional secretary, she certainly does not wish to be regarded as an amateur. If I cannot fix the plumbing in my house myself, I call upon a professional plumber, usually without a 4+ year degree. Also, a pro- fessional athlete is one who knows what he is doing so well that he can make a living out of it, i.e. one of the best, with or without a degree. I think this and similar, sharp classifications of employees in a company (in Sweden we draw a very clear line between white collar and blue collar workers) are outdated anyway! ----- Bengt Gallmo e-mail: lmebgo@eds.ericsson.se Telefonaktiebolaget L M Ericsson phone: +46 8 719 1940 S-126 25 STOCKHOLM fax: +46 8 719 3988 SWEDEN Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side!
kassover@minerva.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) (09/12/90)
In article <13701@eds.ericsson.se> lmebgo@eds.ericsson.se (Bengt G{llmo, L M Ericsson, Stockholm, Sweden) writes: >In article <1991@apctrc.UUCP>, zjrs10@gpss14.trc.amoco.com |(J. Rusty Sandschaper) writes: | || Companies and organizations have traditionally classified individuals || as either professionals or non-professionals. The measure of which has || usually been based on a 4+ yr. degree. As non-professionals obtain || experience and training in computer programming and usage the following || questions arise. || || Can these individuals at some point become professionals? || ..... | |As an aside, I wonder if it has occurred to you that people who have not |grown up in that tradition, when they first run into it may find it |strange and possibly insulting to 'non-professionals'. My secretary is a |professional secretary, she certainly does not wish to be regarded as an |amateur. If I cannot fix the plumbing in my house myself, I call upon a |professional plumber, usually without a 4+ year degree. Also, a pro- |fessional athlete is one who knows what he is doing so well that he can |make a living out of it, i.e. one of the best, with or without a degree. A Professional is someone who is paid to do what he does. An Amateur is someone who does what he does because he likes to do it. Sorry, I'm away from my Webster's at the moment. -- David Kassover "Proper technique helps protect you against kassover@ra.crd.ge.com sharp weapons and dull judges." kassover@crd.ge.com F. Collins
harrison@necssd.NEC.COM (Mark Harrison) (09/12/90)
In article <1990Sep10.132253.2781@pdn.paradyne.com>, reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach) writes: > In addition, I have seen people without degrees who are just as > qualified to be a professional as those with degrees. It is rare, but it > happens. It is more common in some environments than in others. When I worked at Applied Data Research, there were many people who had been programming since the late 50's and early 60's (a LOT of people who started out on 1401's, and a few who started out on electro-mechanical tabulating machines). At that time, there were no CS degrees, and a lot of these people learned how to program in the service. -- Mark Harrison harrison@necssd.NEC.COM (214)518-5050 {necntc, cs.utexas.edu}!necssd!harrison standard disclaimers apply...
martin@hq.af.mil (Gregory.J.Martin) (09/13/90)
In article <1991@apctrc.UUCP> zjrs10@gpss14.trc.amoco.com (J. Rusty Sandschaper) writes: > > Companies and organizations have traditionally classified individuals >as either professionals or non-professionals. The measure of which has >usually been based on a 4+ yr. degree. As non-professionals obtain >experience and training in computer programming and usage the following >questions arise. > > Can these individuals at some point become professionals? > ....etc...... I think you company may be missing the boat. A completed checklist doesn't make professional. But I'd chose not to flame you because I'm a "professional"!?! Several people have made a living defining "professionals" and I think a visit to the library may be appropriate. Also, don't get cught up in this big "categorization" drive. If a person is responsible and gets their work done on time, I consider them a professional. Dedication goes a long way in my book. Do some reading. ...Greg Martin (The AF won't let me express their opinions!)
soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) (09/14/90)
kassover@minerva.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes: >A Professional is someone who is paid to do what he does. >An Amateur is someone who does what he does because he likes to >do it. After reading this glib remark, I couldn't help but wonder what David considers professionals who hate what they are paid to do, and amateurs who like their jobs. A. A professional amateur. B. A amateurish professional. >Sorry, I'm away from my Webster's at the moment. We forgive you. (Gosh, who's this `we'?) **** Back to your normal programming *** --- Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403 Telecom Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 249, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
wilber@aludra.usc.edu (John Wilber) (09/18/90)
In article <1990Sep10.132253.2781@pdn.paradyne.com> reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach) writes: > In addition, I have seen people without degrees who are just as >qualified to be a professional as those with degrees. It is rare, but it >happens. In the areas in which I have worked, computer science degrees (especially past B.S.) have seemed to have an inverse relationship to professional skill. My initial reaction to hearing that someone has a PhD in CS is that he's likely to know little of any practical value. That's not to say that I have never met competent people with advanced degrees (I have one myself), nor that I have never seen an undegreed idiot, but I think that using the level of university "education" as an indicator of skill level in computer professionals is a misguided approach.