freewill@nstar.UUCP (Bill Williston) (12/01/90)
Hello folks,
Computer programming (pascal) is offered as an elective at the high
school where I teach it. Required courses are in english, math, science,
physical education and government. My department (business) is reviewing
curriculum and would like to offer courses for required credit like
Word processing, desktop publishing for english credit and programming
for math credit.
The english dept. head was not against the idea of word processing, etc
for english credit. The math dept. head was immediately and adamantly
against computer programming for math credit.
Can you suggest rationals for or against the idea of programming
for high school math credit? Let me know if you wnt a response summary.
My B.S. in math required some programming so the idea is not foreign to
higher education. Some high schools in my area offer word processing for
ehglish credit. Thanks in advance.enbody@ss8.cps.msu.edu (Dr Richard Enbody) (12/02/90)
PROGRAMMING IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR MATHEMATICS!!!!!!
The basics of mathematics at the high school level
should be mastered by all.
Let me go one step further. If computer science is
to be taught in high school, something in the current
curriculum must be removed to make room for it.
What should that be? Certainly not mathematics or
the sciences. Certainly not writing. Certainly not
history. Certainly not foreign languages. ...
If all the classic high school topics are mastered,
one could consider computer science.
How much mathematics is more important than computer
science? Calculus. (Notice that I am not saying
that Calculus is a prerequisite for programming.)
Should computers be used as a tool at the high school
level? Absolutely. Write essays on word processors,
a hypertext encycolpedia of history would be wonderful,
use Mathematica to help teach mathematics...
(Don't use a computer as a teacher -- but
I digress, I could rant and rave on that topic for
even longer...)
I speak from experience with high school mathematics
and college computer science.
Background: BA in Mathematics, Carleton College
6 years as a high school math teacher
PhD in Computer Science, U of Minnesota
4 years as a university professor
-rich
enbody@cps.msu.eduschiebel@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Darrell Schiebel) (12/02/90)
Regreatably, there most likely isn't room to fit a required CS class into the REQUIRED curriculum without removing something, and that would probably be a mistake. However, a CS class(es) should be recommended. In agreement with "Dr Richard Enbody", a package like Mathematica should be introduced into the math classes as early as possible. The graphical capabilities of Mathematica makes math come alive, Allowing one to see functions, perform liner algebra, solve calculus problems, etc. IMHO, Mathematica should hold a similar place in the math domain as the word processor holds in the literary domain. Also, note by choosing Mathematica as a mathematical environment, one has access to multiple programming paradigms which can be gradually introduced to perform more sophisticated operations. Mathematica is a tool which is very useful by all levels of mathematical sophistication. These are just my opinions, and I really have no connection with the makers of Mathematica. I'm just impressed with it. Darrell Schiebel (schiebel@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu)
hb136@leah.albany.edu (Herb Brown) (12/02/90)
In article <1076@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu> schiebel@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Darrell Schiebel) writes > >In agreement with "Dr Richard Enbody", a package like Mathematica should > > > Darrell Schiebel > (schiebel@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu) There are other algebraic manipulation packages that can be used, such as Maple, Derive, etc. At The University at Albany we have a Computer Classroom (we also have Computer Labs throughout the campus) equipped with Maple software where we offer several mathematics courses (such as Calculus, Basic Analysis, Classical Algebra, Linear Programming & Game Thy, Numerical Analysis, and Statistics). The room contains 21 computers and registration is limited to 20 students. The students interact simultaneously with their computer, the instructor's computer, the blackboard, and their fellow students. We designed the room so that no computer is between the student and the instructor. It has been truly delightful to teach in the Computer Classroom this semester. (I taught Calculus I and a Basic Analysis course.) Herb -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herb Brown Math Dept The Univ at Albany Albany, NY 12222 (518) 442-4640 hibrown@leah.albany.edu or hibrown@cs.albany.edu or hb136@ALBNYVMS.BITNET ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu (12/03/90)
In article <NZaiT1w161w@nstar.UUCP>, freewill@nstar.UUCP (Bill Williston) writes: > Hello folks, > Computer programming (pascal) is offered as an elective at the high > school where I teach it. Required courses are in english, math, science, > physical education and government. My department (business) is reviewing > curriculum and would like to offer courses for required credit like > Word processing, desktop publishing for english credit and programming > for math credit. > The english dept. head was not against the idea of word processing, etc > for english credit. The math dept. head was immediately and adamantly > against computer programming for math credit. > Can you suggest rationals for or against the idea of programming > for high school math credit? Let me know if you wnt a response summary. > My B.S. in math required some programming so the idea is not foreign to > higher education. Some high schools in my area offer word processing for > ehglish credit. Thanks in advance. Others who have responded to this thus far haven't really answered the original question about programming for high school math credit. There is an intellectual fact (I believe) that programming [using a fixed set of rules to solve a problem] is very similar to a classical geometry course [using a fixed set of axioms to build other truths]. This is a very strong arguement for making programming courses serve as mathematics courses. All other arguements fail IMHO. Programming is an intellectual science (like mathematics) and uses mathematics as a its base, but the justification for using programming as a math course is a lot weaker that using high school physics for math credit. Fit a solid programming course in the curriculum as an option. Require only algebra I, but also require a semester of typing!!!!!!! Typing is a MUST. My experience with my students is that those who can type well will spend more quality time working on programming than those who "hunt and peck." Don't require all students (even those going with "academic" deplomas) to take programming. ------------------------------------------------------*------------------- -- George C. Harrison ------------------------------ * * ----------------- ----- Professor of Computer Science -------------- * * * ---------------- ----- Norfolk State University, ----------------- *Merry* --------------- -------- Norfolk, Virginia 23504 --------------- * * * * * -------------- ----- INTERNET: g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu ------ *Christmas* ------------- ----------These are MY views.... you may share them..*** -----------------
turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) (12/04/90)
----- In article <NZaiT1w161w@nstar.UUCP> freewill@nstar.UUCP (Bill Williston) writes: > The english dept. head was not against the idea of word > processing, etc for english credit. ... Get her or him fired! Don't misunderstand me. Unlike a preeminent but reactionary computer scientist I could name, I do not think word processors are a detriment to composition and writing skills. They are a great convenience. But that is all they are. High schools should require all students who are academically capable to take four years of rhetoric, writing, and literature. In this, most fail abysmally. If students want to take practical courses as *electives* in typing, using a word processor, or how to drive a car (another great convenience), that is fine. But such courses should stand not in stead of English. > ... The math dept. head was immediately and adamantly against > computer programming for math credit. Very few high school programming courses teach any mathematics. The one of which you write may be the exception, but I doubt it. Most likely, your math department head is wiser than your English department head, and better understands where high schools are failing, and that word processing classes and most programming classes do not contribute to the solution. At the university level, I would prefer an entering freshman to have strong writing skills and high school math at least through trigonometry, rather than less English and math, but knowledge of how to "word process" or write Pascal programs. I think this is best whether the freshman majors in English or computer science. Russell
b-davis%cai.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brad Davis) (12/04/90)
In article <15404@cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes: >> The english dept. head was not against the idea of word >> processing, etc for english credit. ... > >Get her or him fired! Don't misunderstand me. I agree. Word processing should replace a type class, not an English class (notice that English is capitalized :-). >> ... The math dept. head was immediately and adamantly against >> computer programming for math credit. > >Very few high school programming courses teach any mathematics. >Most likely, your math department head is wiser than your English >department head, and better understands where high schools are >failing Correct. I would rather have beginning CS students with no programming experience and exceptional math (and English) backgrounds, and I don't even have to teach them, just work alongside some of them. -- Brad Davis ..!uunet.uu.net!cs.utah.edu!cai.utah.edu!b-davis b-davis@cs.utah.edu, b-davis@cai.utah.edu One drunk driver can ruin your whole day.
thom@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Thom Gillespie) (12/04/90)
In article <15404@cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes: >----- >In article <NZaiT1w161w@nstar.UUCP> freewill@nstar.UUCP (Bill Williston) writes: >> The english dept. head was not against the idea of word >> processing, etc for english credit. ... > >Get her or him fired! Don't misunderstand me. Unlike a... > >> ... The math dept. head was immediately and adamantly against >> computer programming for math credit. > >Very few high school programming courses teach any mathematics... I guess my objection to this discussion is that I view computing and all it encompasses as "media" rather than math or english. As media I think the kids should be exposed to it at all levels from the Muppets Keyboard on up. There used to be a concept " reading in the content area" which meant that reading ( and writing ) was not 'just a subject' -- it was more important and 'all' the classes should expect and foster development skills in reading and writing. To me, the same problem exists with all these boxes such as 'english' and matematics not having room for programming ( word processing, graphics, midi, etc). All the discussion treats programming ( word processing, graphics,midi, etc) as 'driver training', something which can be taken just before voting age and all will be honky-dorey. The problem is the 'little boxes' most educators put learning in, such as mathematics, history, english ... programming. Learning doesn't occur in that fashion ... only education. If programming is 'media' than it is important, because we breath media the way a fish breathes air. --Thom Gillespie
freewill@nstar.UUCP (Bill Williston) (12/04/90)
Thank you for the response. Just to clarify, programming is not a required course. Perhaps we could require algebra as a prerequisite. Students seem to have difficulty solving problems, regardless of the medium.
freewill@nstar.UUCP (Bill Williston) (12/04/90)
turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes: > not think word processors are a detriment to composition and > writing skills. They are a great convenience. But that is all > they are. High schools should require all students who are > academically capable to take four years of rhetoric, writing, and Word processing is convenient. Do you practice spelling, grammar, rhetoric when you word process? Requiring students to write well and use their language seems to be practicing english... > > department head, and better understands where high schools are > failing, and that word processing classes and most programming > classes do not contribute to the solution. I would like to respond to 'where high schools are failing' if you could be more specific... As a high school teacher I can tell you that schools begin 'failing' before high school. > > At the university level, I would prefer an entering freshman to > have strong writing skills and high school math at least through > trigonometry, rather than less English and math, but knowledge > of how to "word process" or write Pascal programs. I think this > is best whether the freshman majors in English or computer > science. > aren't writing skills and word processing synonymous in 1990? If students learn problem solving in math then programming is not needed. BW
tok@stbimbo.UUCP (Terry Kane) (12/05/90)
>> >aren't writing skills and word processing synonymous in 1990? If >students learn problem solving in math then programming is not >needed. I took freshman English classes in 1979. Can technology have changed those courses so much that students can use WordPerfect to write that weekly essay? Do you mean to tell me that college bookstore have stopped carrying bluebooks due to lack of demand? Whoa DOODZ! Have I BEEN in a TIME-WARP or WHAT? And let me ask you about problem solving in math. What is it about math that makes programming obsolescent? I believe wholeheartedly that programming is an absolute necessity for the sake of all those professional deprogrammers making a buck in California, right? Be smart, droid... think before you write.
harrison@necssd.NEC.COM (Mark Harrison) (12/08/90)
In article <1076@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu>, schiebel@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Darrell Schiebel) writes: > In agreement with "Dr Richard Enbody", a package like Mathematica should > be introduced into the math classes as early as possible. I also agree with this. If you don't have the budget for mathematica ($800 - $1000 plus 386 machine with megs of memory), an alternative might be "Derive", the decendent of MuMath. It is $139, and runs on XT's with 512K of memory and at least one 360K floppy drive. It has saved my neck since returning to school. -- Mark Harrison harrison@necssd.NEC.COM (214)518-5050 {necntc, cs.utexas.edu}!necssd!harrison standard disclaimers apply...
hb136@leah.albany.edu (Herb Brown) (12/08/90)
In article <565@necssd.NEC.COM> harrison@necssd.NEC.COM (Mark Harrison) writes: >In article <1076@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu>, schiebel@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Darrell Schiebel) writes: > >> In agreement with "Dr Richard Enbody", a package like Mathematica should >> be introduced into the math classes as early as possible. > >I also agree with this. If you don't have the budget for mathematica >($800 - $1000 plus 386 machine with megs of memory), an alternative >might be "Derive", the decendent of MuMath. > >-- >Mark Harrison harrison@necssd.NEC.COM >(214)518-5050 {necntc, cs.utexas.edu}!necssd!harrison >standard disclaimers apply... Another excellent CAS (Computer Algebra System) is Maple. We have a Computer Classroom with Amiga Computers and Maple software where we teach several levels of mathematics courses including both elementary and advanced mathematics. Maple is also available for other platforms: Macintoshes, Suns, Mainframes, etc. Having the ability to EXPLORE mathematical ideas with non-fabricated examples is a boon to mathematics education and the use of CAS's for such exploration will become "standard" sooner than we think. In our particular Classroom, the students have the opportunity to interact simultaneously with their machine, the instuctor's machine, the blackboard, and their fellow students. There is a one-to-one correspondence between the number of students and the number of machines; yet we encourage small two or three group explorations. Herb -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herb Brown Math Dept The Univ at Albany Albany, NY 12222 (518) 442-4640 hibrown@leah.albany.edu or hibrown@cs.albany.edu or hb136@ALBNYVMS.BITNET ----------------------------------------------------------------------------