m-liu@flims.UUCP (03/15/87)
As I promised earlier, I am posting a summary of responses that I received from my request of opinions on PC LANS. I did, however, make a mistake in not making my request explicit enough and failed to mention that at this time I would be only connecting PC's and do not need interfaces for other types of boxes... I also managed to lose one letter that was quite informative that referred to the UB devices. After reviewing quite a bit of information, we have yet to decide which vendors we will be buying from because there are still some points to be ironed out. As reference points, the PC World series on LANS was quite helpful and served as a tutorial. Novell publishes a report on both hardware and software comparisons that is also quite good. From the responses that I received I think we will look heavily into Novell for s/w and either 3Com or Ungermann-Bass for h/w. It is quite important that we get good well-known products that will be here in the next six months as we don't have time to support the network ourselves if the vendor vaporizes... I hope this summary helps some of you out there and I want to thank all those the replied to my request. Micky Liu Columbia University OSIS / Systems Group ARPA: x1.micky@cu20b.columbia.edu UUCP: ...seismo!columbia!flims!m-liu BITNET: malua@cuvmc ====================================================================== >Dan Frank >dan@db.wisc.edu >...uwvax!prairie!dan You didn't say if running a native DOS system was important to you. If so, you're going to be pretty disappointed running network software on a non-multitasking system. One thing to check out, though, is the QNX networked message passing system. It resembles Unix superficially, and is a network-transparent multi-tasking OS that allows booting over the network, sharing multiple file systems (i.e. no single dedicated server node), multiple print spoolers, etc. It runs on a heterogenous network of XT and AT clones. Even if you have DOS users, check it out. DOS will run as a task on any QNX node, and you can set up virtual disks for every DOS task, so that files and disks can be shared across the network. In addition, there is an optional file system task that allows QNX programs to read and write DOS file systems transparently. It is possible to accomodate both users of DOS and folks working on their own programs on the same network. The net is a 10 Mbit (I think) ARCnet, which is a baseband token-passing network using coax and a combination of active and passive low-cost hubs (for impedance matching purposes). Nodes can be brought on and off the network easily and without shutting down - the net reconfigures itself dynamically. Current limit on number of nodes is 255; internetworking capabilities are in the works. One nice thing about the company: the authors of the OS are also the owners of the firm. No empty-headed marketeers making the technical decisions. Support is quite good, and an on-line update service is provided. Updates are frequent and responsive to customer needs. Sites are tied together (optionally) with a wide area network service that is gatewayed to the Unix uucp net via a site in California. Here's the company data: Quantum Software Systems Ltd. Moodie Drive High Tech Park 215 Stafford Road Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2H 9C1 (613) 726-1893 If you have a pathalias database and a domain mailer like smail, you can reach Dan Dodge (one of the authors and owners) at: dtdodge@142KAB.das.net otherwise try ... sun!daslink!dasnet!142KAB!dtdodge Let me know if this helps. A good customer reference for the system is Joel Gochberg, who has a startup company that developed a multi-node (I think 32 at the moment) system for hospital critical care patient data collection and management based on QNX. You might reach him at 608-833-0045. >Kurt Zeilenga >zeilenga@hc.dspo.gov >hc!zeilenga Look into SUN Microsystems produces for Integrated PC Networks (integrated with SUN/DEC/etc Ethernet systems). They have: PC NFS (fanastic!) package. Allows transparent access to NFS partitions via DOS. IPC boards gives your SUN workstation DOS 80286/7 capabilities. The prices are constantly dropping and they have some new package deals. Contact your local SUN rep for more info. >John Stanley >...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!john My best experiences have been with Novell software running on a number of hardware configurations. (3com Ethernet is my favorite) The system is transparent as they come. You have to know -exactly- what to check to be able to tell the difference between Novell network use and normal MS-DOS usage. They provide lots of utilitys (well written, friendlly and bug free) and have several PC related products to assist with "bridging" to maniframes for whatever purposes you might want... A nice "mail" facility and inter-PC communication options (limited but useful) are built into the system. Their file access speed is excelent. In many cases I could save a huge file to the network disk and pull it back faster than doing to/from the hard disk in my own AT. The system is file-server rather than disk-server which prevents several potential problems. They support full record/file locking for multi-user databases which is compatable with IBM's multi-user system for PC networking. I have no financial ties to Novell, I just like their software.... >E.M. Durbin >...ihnp4!cuuxb!emike Personally, I think STARLAN is a best bet. IBM's ring network is more expensive and harder to add to and/or reconfigure. PC NFS may not offer the total transparency you may require, and pc ethernet boards are more expensive than Starlan NAU boards, plus coax and tranceivers are more expensive to buy, install, and maintain then twisted pair. But NFS will support more (I think) PCs (per server) than Starlan. Starlan offers modularity and (almost) total transparency. Most new DOS software advertise LAN'able capabilities, which means it'll work on Starlan. Unfortunatley, if you don't want a PC to be the disk server, then the only other choice you have is a 3B2, but then a 3B2 can be a very effective gateway between a Starlan network and TCP/IP and UUCP Networks (i.e Starlan, WIN/3B (TCP/IP) and BNU (UUCP) software is available and can coexist). STARLAN offers (at least): Server and Client (and both) Disk Sharing Remote Login (via the em4410 emulator, possibly others) Printer Spooling/Sharing TLI Interface for programming. IEEE Standardization (802.2 over 802.3). According to a trade mag: COST PER WORKSTATION: SIZE OF NETWORK STARLAN TOKEN-RING 2 PCs $720 (daisy chain) $1,170 (star) 3 PCs $720 (daisy chain) $1,060 (star) 5 PCs $720 (daisy chain) $972 (star) 9 PCs $720 (daisy chain) $987 (star) $784 (star) 17 PCs $720 (star/daisy chain) $956 (star) $788 (star) E. M. Durbin (312) 653-8495 >Guy Harris >guy@sun.com Well, if you have an NFS machine to act as a file server, you can run our PC-NFS product on the PCs. It's client-only, though, so you *do* need something like a UNIX box running NFS to act as the server; it won't be appropriate if you want a PC-only network file system. It also comes with a TELNET implementation. FTP Software in Cambridge offers FTP (one presumes) and TELNET for the PC; they may also offer some other protocols like that. I don't think they have a transparent network file system, though. A company called Centram (soon, maybe, to become a subisidiary of SMI) offers a network file system called TOPS that works on PCs and Macintoshes. I believe it is also a transparent network file system. >Bill Westfield >billw@score.stanford.edu you would be surprised. Several ethernet/cheapernet hardware interfaces are available for the PC bus (interlan and 3com are two companies), and software is available to do full TCP/IP communications, including FTP, TELNET, and I think RSH/RCP/etc too. several of these packages are available for Free from universities (the basic package from MIT, Stanford added FTP, CMU did a port to microsoft C, etc). Supported comercial versions are also available from "FTP Software inc" (an MIT spinoff company). SUN also sells a package called PCNFS that is an NFS client implementation for PCs.... In my opinion, these packages are the way to go if you ever plan to talk to anything other than other PCs... >Rich Fritzson >fritzson@bigburd.prc.Unisys.COM >seismo!burdvax!fritzson I have setup two PC Networks and helped on a third. They were all relatively successful so I may know something. 1) For software, if you are running PCs and PC software, use Novell Advanced Netware. Nothing else has the track record or the user base. Besides it is very solid software. It is fast and I have never crashed the network while it was running (a few workstations maybe, but not the server). 2) I have installed Netware on Orchid's PC Net hardware and on IBM Token ring equipment (it runs on nearly every brand and kind of networking hardware). The Orchid stuff is very cheap but still not worth it (abysmal performance); the IBM token ring worked fine. I understand the PROTEON token ring also works well it you can get it. 3) Novell supports effortless internetworking. The two networks mentioned above were linked so that all users could access the servers of either network without know what was going on. The server simultaneously serves as a bridge between networks. (You can add a dedicated bridge for higher performance.) 4) All of these systems work by presenting the server's directories as additional disk drives to user's workstations. They provide a variety of file and record locking techniques. You should expect to dedicate a machine as a file server. Splitting a machine between file server duty and workstation duty is just asking for trouble. If there are specific things I can tell you about, let me know. I don't actively work with these things anymore, but I am in touch with former clients who are still using and improving their nets. I had alot of fun with them. >John Levine >{ ihnp4 | decvax | cbosgd | harvard | yale }!ima!johnl, Levine@YALE.something We have about 30 PCs hooked together with 3Com ethernet. It works well enough. We rented our office space before the walls went up, so we prewired the whole thing with thick Ethernet, with transceiver cables dropped into each office and DEC DELNI transceiver multiplexors in the closets to cut down the price of the transceivers. If we had it to do over, I'd do the same thing except that instead of dropping transceiver cables and hanging them from DELNIs, I'd drop thin Ethernet and hang them from DEMPRs. That way if there's more than one station in an office, you can daisy-chain them. For servers, we have an AT clone with a 400MB Fuji Eagle and a 3Com 3Server with an 80MB mini-winnie. The software is currently 3com's EtherSeries which provides remote virtual disks with much the flavor of VM/370. It also supports remote printing; we have a Laserjet and a Laserwriter on the 3server and a Laserjet and an Oki 93 (used only for printing database log entries) on the AT. This systems works well, although it has the same sharing problems as VM -- one writer per minidisk, and buffering problems. There is a special multiple write mode and we've found a database DataFlex which works with it. We're in the process of migrating to their new 3plus software, which is based on MS-net, the same as IBM's token ring software. Its advantages are that it's twice as fast and provides true shared file service. Its disadvantages are that it's much larger, about 100K rather than 8K, and is somewhat harder to configure, though once they're configured they're about equally easy to use. The only other software that's worth looking at is that from Novell, which also provides file service. We decided against Novell two years ago because they wouldn't support our Eagle, didn't support multiple servers, and were unbelievably arrogant, i.e. there was something wrong with us if we wanted to put 400MB on a server. It might be worth a look now. Novell and 3com each claim to be faster than the other, really they're about the same. If you already have walls full of phone wire, you might consider token ring or 3com's forthcoming ethernet on phone wire. 3com and Novell both support token ring and ethernet networks interoperating. They both have ways to link multiple networks together, either locally or slowly over the phone. IBM's token ring hardware is supposed to be OK, but their software is universally decried as worthless. I hear that even inside IBM everybody runs Novell on it. >amdahl!drivax!socha First, I am making the following assumptions: 1) Your want to run IBM PC-DOS and not Concurrent DOS XM or other operating systems. (Note: XM has networking but its different.) 2) You have PC's, XT's, and AT's. (If only AT's you could consider using FlexOS or, put it on the File Servers.) 3) You want a network system where users can share files from all nodes. This leaves out MS-NET because it must have file servers. Now, Assuming you can not use a Digital Research product (sadly), I have experience with IBM's PC Network Program 1.10. (It is basically the same software that uses the newer Token-Ring hardware but we use it with LANA (SYTEK) cards. This product is simple to install and operate. Do the following: 1) Insert Lana card in machine (pc, xt, at, or compatible I assume) 2) Cable and connect all nodes together. For SYTEK LANA card this is at the Frequency translation unit. For Token Ring it will be the hubs. 3) Copy the network software to hard disk. (can boot from floppy) 4) Put network commands in autoexec.bat These would be NET START level node /parameters NET SHARE mydev=x: (only if level == SRV) NET USE n: \\othrnode\device (as many as needed) 5) Use system. definitions: in NET commands: level is one of: RDR RCV MSG SRV (from Requestor only to full Requester and Server) node is the local name of each machine, must be unique on network parameters are for tuning capabilities (well dosumented) x: is some local device or subdirectory that I want to share mydev is the name it will be known by on the network (\\node\mydev) othrnode is another node that you want access to device is a device on another node that you want to access Note: device can be a subdirectory on a disk n: is the local ASSIGNed name that you are giving a device ex: NET USE H: \\TIM\LOTUS Gives me access to the LOTUS subdirectory on node TIM as my device H:. Caveat's Sometimes (when we move) the biggest problem is cabling. You have to get the right length of cable in the right connector becuase of sensitivity of the broadband system. (Token should not be sensitive to cabling in this way.) One person should be the system administrator and learn enough to set up all machines. Then he/she will be able to do the installs very quickly. {It takes me longer to run the cable than to insert the board, connect, install the software, change autoexec.bat, and boot up a networked node: <20min + cabling time.} (true of any good system) The SYTEK LANA card is not the swiftest. This is mostly due to a hardware design fault that has a 1 byte wide bottleneck between the memory on the card and the PC. The Token Ring card may not have this characteristic. (Test drive different systems, this is not that bad.) Advantages: Any node can be a server. This is one of the biggies around here. Specifically we often need to copy files from one machine to another or, need to edit a file on another machine. This works great! If you have NET USEd a disk you then just use it as you would normally. It is supported by IBM and major stores (BusinessLand I think). So, at least the local IBM sales rep should be able to help you set up your system (But we did it ourselves, we are software/hardware types.) Anyway, I would recommend this for a business or univeristy environment. P.S. If you go for Novell (Why, I don't know, He's on First), may I recommend the ARCnet card version. For being one of the first commercial LAN systems (though initially only in Datapoint gear), it is STILL one of the fastest. This is due to the simplicity of the design of ARCnet. Other LAN's can also use the ARC cards. Finally, check out a PCWorld (I think) from about 2-3 months ago. The cover picture is of a hand holding many different LAN cables (ARC co-ax, StarLan, RS-232, etc.) It is a special issue in LAN hardware and covers a goot set of possibilities. But, remember, they ONLY used NOVELL software and so limit the choices to only hardware that NOVELL supports. Therefore they do not compare NOVELL vs MS-NET vs PC-LAN VS ... This is an important consideration. >Tim Lange >tim@j.cc.purdue.edu I support two different networks here at Purdue, both use Ethernet as the hardware medium. We use thin Ethernet and 3com cards. The cost of the cards is about $400 per machine, plus a couple bucks for the connectors. As for software, one uses PCIP which is in the public domain, this works like TCP/IP, we currently only use it for print serving. The other is Novell Advanced Netware 86. I have seven machines on it right now, above the hardware cost, the Netware is $1500 total. Nothing extra for each workstation. Netware support disk serving, mail, messages, login security and optional ability to use TCP/IP, modem sharing, and network dialin. It runs quite fast, most users are not aware that the disk accesses are through a network and not on the local drives.