Robin@turbo.RAY.COM (Robin Alston) (04/30/88)
We have a bunch of SGI workstations currently running XNS over ethernet. We have just been informed that when we move into a new building at the end of May we will have to use a single ethernet cable for the whole building which includes many vaxen running VMS many many pc's with some kind of future-net link and many pc's with simple vax links. My question is can this really work? Can XNS and TCP-IP share the same coax cable with no possible problems? Can we have our own domain (we really have no interest at this time in talking to our vaxes), while decnet has its own on the same cable? Am I right to be paranoid about some bureaucrats decision to limit internal cabling this way? We are intending at some future time to upgrade to TCP-IP so we can run NFS but we want to do that in our own sweet time and not in a hurry. Any help or hard facts would be gratefully accepted before I go out and humanely shoot myself. -- ------------------------------------------------- # Whats worse than two MA drivers on a freeway? # Dr. Robin the REAL # Answer: One Toronto driver # SuperUser Atilla! ------------------------------------------------- (617)-460-8225 Robin@turbo.ray.com .....!rayssd!turbo!Robin
limes@sun.uucp (Greg Limes) (04/30/88)
In article <218@turbo.RAY.COM> Robin@turbo.RAY.COM (Robin Alston) writes: >Can XNS and TCP-IP share the same coax cable with no possible problems? No problem. At the bottem layer, all the packets are tagged with source and destination ethernet addresses, so packets only go where they are expected -- except for the broadcast packets ... Also, there is a field in the ethernet packet that determines the protocol type; this should be checked by your network software. Hopefully the drivers will not bitch about unknown packet types, as the XNS packets are a complete mystery to TCP, and TCP is just greek to XNS. It is even possible (gag) to run both TCP/IP and XNS through the same physical interface, but the bottom layer does need to know where to send each packet type. You might consider contacting someone at Communcation Machinery Corporation in Santa Barbara, California; when I was there we did some XNS development that shared the building-wide ethernet with normal TCP used by all the other iron. >Can we have our own domain (we really have no interest at this time in >talking to our vaxes), while decnet has its own on the same cable? You do not need to do anything special to ignore each other; in fact, quite a bit would need to be done to make them talk. One would have to understand the other's protocol. Imagine red and blue light in an optical fiber. The upper level packet layouts just do not jibe. -- Greg Limes [limes@sun.com] frames to /dev/fb -- Greg Limes [limes@sun.com] frames to /dev/fb
dls@mace.cc.purdue.edu (David L Stevens) (05/01/88)
We ran two distinct logical TCP/IP networks on one Ethernet cable for a time with no problems. The only thing you'll have to worry about are (Ethernet) broadcast packets, since those will go everywhere. IP should drop them quietly, but I don't know about XNS. -- +-DLS (dls@s.cc.purdue.edu)
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (05/03/88)
You can put a LOT of still on one cable. The limiting factor is the
traffic, not the number of devices (until you reach the addressing
limit). I would not expect to see any trouble, and you can get software
for the VMS machines to enable sending SMTP mail to them.
--
bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa)
{uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -mevjs@rhyolite.SGI.COM (Vernon Schryver) (05/03/88)
In article <218@turbo.RAY.COM>, Robin@turbo.RAY.COM (Robin Alston) writes: > > We have a bunch of SGI workstations currently running XNS over ethernet. > We have just been informed that when we move into a new building at the > end of May we will have to use a single ethernet cable for the whole > building which includes many vaxen running VMS many many pc's with some kind > of future-net link and many pc's with simple vax links. > > My question is can this really work? > Can XNS and TCP-IP share the same coax cable with no possible problems? > Can we have our own domain (we really have no interest at this time in > talking to our vaxes), while decnet has its own on the same cable? We have converted our ever growing network from our XNS to TCP. Two years ago, we had ~100 workstations, some VAXes, and other stuff, all on one cable. We used XNS almost exclusively, even on the VAXes. We now have lots more workstations, more VAXes (VMS, 4.2+XNS+TCP, 4.3+NFS), PC-clones running TCP, many cables, routers (our own, of course), bridges, microwaves, an APRANET connection (also, of course, our own box--please forgive the commercial), using almost exclusively TCP/IP/UDP. The conversion was continuous; for most percentages n between 1 and 100, we have had n% TCP and (100-n)% XNS, without trouble. We also mix DECnet with TCP & XNS on the same cable, using IRIS's & VAXes to gateway between TCP & DECnet. We have been blessed with other, educational troubles. For example, consider what groups of IRIS 4D's running the UDP-broadcast version of 'dog' at >30 frames/sec do to 750's, which think anything more than 20 broadcast packets/sec is a catastrophic storm. Vernon Schryver Silicon Graphics vjs@sgi.com {decwrl,sun,pyramid,research,allegra,ucbvax}!sgi!vjs
ron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie) (05/04/88)
XNS and TCP/IP will coexist on an Ethernet. They use different Ethernet Type numbers. I have the TCP/IP version of flight simulator when you're ready. -Ron
zemon@felix.UUCP (Art Zemon) (05/06/88)
Other people have given you the theoretical whys and
wherefores about doing this. I thought I would chip in some
practical experience in case you are the type who wants
"real proof". (I'm not trying to be derogatory here, just
helpful.)
We run one Ethernet cable with the following protocols on
it:
TCP/IP
XNS
DECnet
DEC LAT
DEC MOP
Everything runs just fine. Don't worry about it.
--
-- Art Zemon
By Computer: ...!hplabs!felix!zemon
By Air: Archer N33565
By Golly: moderator of comp.unix.ultrixegisin@watmath.waterloo.edu (Eric Gisin) (05/07/88)
One thing no-one has mentioned yet is the case where the ethernet type is a valid 802.3 packet length. I think Xerox PUP falls in to this catagory (what's PUP anyway?). What do 802.3 compatible systems do with such packets? VMS 4.4, for example, supports 802.3 LLC headers.
wilson@laic.UUCP (Robin Wilson) (05/08/88)
We have a very large network here at Lockheed. We have Ungermann/Bass terminal servers using XNS, and Vaxen using DECnet, SUNs using NFS and TCP, Symbolics using CHAOS (TCP derivative), and assundry "special" cases using there own brand of protocols. Our primary concern, in having them all use the same cable (baseband Ethernet bridged together with protocol independant VitaLink TransLAN Bridges), is coordinating additions of new devices of the SAME protocol. For example, I work at the Research Lab in Palo Alto, and we are bridged over a VitaLink to the main Lockheed facility in Sunnyvale; we are constantly having problems when the Sunnyvale people connect stuff up to their network and forget to tell us. One time, our DECnet crapped out because we were set to route to only 30 nodes. The Sunnyvale facility had connected a very extensive network to theirs using a VitaLink, the new network had about 40 DECnet nodes, and when they added them to our DECnet, our router began to swap between the thirty most recently seen nodes, and then trashed. The long and the long (no short story here) of it is that if you connect alot of different protocols to your network, be sure you keep tight reigns on the addition of new devices, some of them may have effects you never dreamed of on your other nodes out there. R.D. WILSON "Keep your grubby paws off of my views!"
mckay@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Dwight D Mckay) (05/10/88)
While we're on the topic: Is it possible to have Novell NetWare on the same wire with TCP/IP, XNS and AppleTalk (ethertalk?)? --Dwight Mckay, ECN Workstation Software Support [arpanet: mckay@ee.ecn.purdue.edu, usenet: ...ihnp4!pur-ee!mckay] [Compu-serve: 75776,1521, office: EE 348B, phone: (317) 494-3561]
chuck@excelan.UUCP (Chuck Kollars) (05/11/88)
In article <2962@ea.ecn.purdue.edu> mckay@ea.ecn.purdue.edu.UUCP (Dwight D Mckay) writes: >...Is it possible to have Novell NetWare on the same wire with TCP/IP, XNS and AppleTalk (ethertalk?)? Yes, all protocols can run on the same Ethernet wire at the same time. Novell's network OS can run over many different media, one of which is Ethernet. If you're using Ethernet with NetWare, consider attaching *all* the NetWare Servers and *all* the Workstations to one Ethernet cable. Multiple NetWare Servers on a single cable works fine. And the Workstations will have direct access not only to the NetWare Servers, but also to all the non-NetWare nodes if and when they need it. -- Chuck Kollars, Excelan, Inc. (chuck@excelan.UUCP) mabell: (408) 434-7434 Internet: mtxinu!excelan!chuck@ucbvax.Berkeley.COM telex: 176610 uucp: ...!{mtxinu,leadsv,cae780}!excelan!chuck fax: (408) 434-2310 post: Excelan, 2180 Fortune Drive, San Jose CA, 95131
bob@cloud9.UUCP (Bob Toxen) (05/11/88)
You can run just about any protocl on the same ethernet cable.
This is because anyone wanting to devise a new protocol is supposed
to obtain a protocol number from Xerox. This protocol number is
encoded in the sent packet. Receivers are expected to recognize only
the protocols they are prepared to deal with. This is why this works.
--
Bob Toxen {ucbvax!ihnp4,harvard,cloud9!es}!anvil!cavu!bob
Stratus Computer, Marlboro, MA
Pilot to Copilot: What's a mountain goat doing way up here in a cloud bank?greg@vertical.oz (Greg Bond) (05/11/88)
In article <2962@ea.ecn.purdue.edu> mckay@ea.ecn.purdue.edu.UUCP (Dwight D Mckay) writes: >Is it possible to have Novell NetWare on the same wire with TCP/IP, XNS and >AppleTalk (ethertalk?)? Certainly is. We have one thin enet cable here running SUNs (TCP/IP) and NetWare 2.0a concurrently. In fact, I have a PC that has a 3com enet card talking PC-NFS (TCP) and a Gateway G-net card talking Netware (on a separate cable!) at the same time. So if I had 2 enet cards I guess I could do both at once on the same cable from the same PC. -- Gregory Bond, Vertical Software, Melbourne, Australia Internet: greg@vertical.oz.au (or greg%vertical.oz.au@uunet.uu.net) UUCP: {uunet,pyramid,mnetor,ukc,ucb-vision}!munnari!vertical.oz!greg ACSnet: greg@vertical.oz
stewarta@sco.COM (Stewart I. Alpert) (05/12/88)
In article <2962@ea.ecn.purdue.edu> mckay@ea.ecn.purdue.edu.UUCP (Dwight D Mckay) writes: > >While we're on the topic: > >Is it possible to have Novell NetWare on the same wire with TCP/IP, XNS and >AppleTalk (ethertalk?)? > Yes