norm@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Seethoff) (05/13/88)
Two weeks ago the question was asked: > Our Facilities Department's passion to move people into separate buildings > continues. We are now faced with the need to extend our engineering Ethernet > to a new building. > > Options we have considered: > > 1) get the Facilities manager fired: > We can't. He reports to a different Division. > > 2) install more Vitalink TranLAN bridges with T-1 lines: > We'd prefer not to, though it is a fallback solution. > > 3) install remote repeaters connected by optical fiber: > Possible, but not likely. Optical cable would have to be provided > by a local utility company already having right of way. We enjoy > dealing with the local telephone company almost as much as > restoring large filesystems. > > 4) install a higher speed MAC level remote bridge with a digital radio link: > This is our first choice solution. We do have an unobstructed > line-of-sight path to the new building. So far we only know about one > product, the "MetroWave Bridge" from the brand D company. Are there > other remote bridge products on the market for use with link speeds > higher than T-1 rates? Our choice is probably limited to protocol > insensitive bridges. What types of digital radios are people using? > > On a related note, would anyone care to suggest a local bridge product for use > in place of DEC's Lanbridge 100? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the capsule summary for those in a hurry: Microwave based 10 Mbit/sec systems: DEC Metrowave bridge and MA/COM (617-272-3100) radios Microwave Bypass Systems (617-494-8700) IR Laser based 10 Mbit/sec systems: Laser Comm (717-394-8634) Fiber optic 10 Mbit/sec systems: Cabletron (603-392-9400) optical repeaters T-1 based 1.54 Mbit/sec systems: Vitalink (408-973-7846) TransLan IV Lower speed systems - 19.2 to 112 Kbit/sec ACC 4030 remote bridge (415-656-6933) List prices for a complete installed system range from $60K for one of the microwave systems to less than $15K for the lower speed systems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are the responses. They are included here with very little editing and contain the author's name and address if you are interested in contacting them directly with specific questions. Thanks again to everyone who responded. Norm Seethoff norm@tc.fluke.COM or {uw-beaver,microsoft,sun}!fluke!norm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > 4) install a higher speed MAC level remote bridge with a digital radio link: > This is our first choice solution. We do have an unobstructed > line-of-sight path to the new building. So far we only know about one > product, the "MetroWave Bridge" from the brand D company. Are there > other remote bridge products on the market for use with link speeds > higher than T-1 rates? Our choice is probably limited to protocol > insensitive bridges. What types of digital radios are people using? We have a similar problem. Facilities manages (in the last 6 months) to acquire a new building every 8 to 10 weeks. Fortunately the ethernet traffic between the buildings is the least of our worries. Each satellite building is connected via multiple T1 radio links. In the case of light inter building traffic a single T1 link muxed into multiple 56Kb channels. The ethernet occupies a single T1 channel. In the case of 56Kb channels it occupies 4 56Kb channels. This is usualy sufficient even with lots of cross network NFS mounts. Our bridges have the capability to run two T1's. The microwave supports 3 T1 channels. We use the remaining bandwidth for telephone. We had originaly looked at MetroWave but decided it was too expensive. We instead have used MA/COM radios with Avanti DS1's and Vitalink Bridges. The whole radio package was provided by a company called Lencom. Lencom is located in Sunnyvale, CA (area code 408). I wish I had a number for you but I just can'tput my finger on it. BTW, with MetroWave you can't do anything but ethernet. I wonder why you need something more than 2 T1 circuits? Cheers, Ian Clements Silicon Graphics, Inc. (415)962-3410 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >4) install a higher speed MAC level remote bridge with a digital radio link: > This is our first choice solution. We do have an unobstructed > line-of-sight path to the new building. So far we only know about one > product, the "MetroWave Bridge" from the brand D company. Are there > other remote bridge products on the market for use with link speeds > higher than T-1 rates? Our choice is probably limited to protocol > insensitive bridges. What types of digital radios are people using? > There is a product that will put native Ethernet packets on microwave. We have installed a link between Boston University and Harvard and since December there has been excellent performance. The microwave link becomes essentially a separate repeatered or bridged segment of Enet. You have a transceiver connector on each end. We have a router installed on our end through a fiber optic repeater to get to the roof and Harvard has a bridge on their end. The man to talk to is: David Theodore, Pres Microwave Bypass Systems 1 Kendall Square Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 494-8700 Be sure and tell him I referred you. There is also an article in this month's LAN magazine about this product and our installation. You will find a lot of background information in this article. Microwave Bypass will do a turnkey installation for you, including licensing and installation. The hardware rarely fails, but if it does it can be down a while, so be sure you understand the maintenance issues. Feel free to contact me for further information. Kent England, Boston University PS: I'd like to hear more about the MetroWave Bridge. Is it 10M Ethernet? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that Codenoll makes an infared light beam device that can be used between buildings with line of sight. Jim Warner <eshop@saturn.ucsc.edu> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've recently seen a product from RAD (Lannet) which uses a laser to shoot a full 10 megabits of ethernet point-to-point for distances of < 1 kilometer. I believe the cost was around 10k. You can mount these on a rooftop or in a window (!!!). There was another company that I came across that made a similar product, but I can't recall their name. There is also a T-1 version, but with a bridge at each end you'd probably wind up spending more for less. Hope this helps. -- Glen Marianko glen@aecom.yu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In comp.dcom.lans, you wrote: > Our Facilities Department's passion to move people into separate buildings > much text deleted... > insensitive bridges. What types of digital radios are people using? There was an article in the last LAN magazine (May 1988) that talked about Harvard and Boston University using a microwave link at 10Mbs. You might want to try to dig up a copy of the magazine to see if the is anything useful there. > On a related note, would anyone care to suggest a local bridge product > for use in place of DEC's Lanbridge 100? You ought to look at Retix. They make a bridge that is adequete for most applications and is cheap (lists for less than $2000). They actually have two versions, one "dumb" one and one that you can do manage (set filters, get statistics, etc) with software that runs on a PC. Good Luck, Dale Smith, Assistant Director of Network Services Internet: dsmith@oregon.uoregon.edu BITNET: dsmith@oregon.bitnet Voice: (503) 686-4394 USmail: University of Oregon Computing Center Eugene, OR 97403-1212 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are lots of microwave companies selling what you are looking for. Two come to mind immediately: Microwave Bypass systems in the Boston Microwave Networks in Houston There are others as well. -- Stan internet: sob@tmc.edu Baylor College of Medicine Olan uucp: {rice,killer,hoptoad}!academ!sob Barber Opinions expressed are only mine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a laser solution to this need that works up to 1km, call me at work where my documentation is and I'll give you the number. Work phone is 714-xxx-xxx x7998 (voice mail). --- Laser Communications Inc. 717-394-8634 --- Steven P. Donegan Sr. Telecommunications Analyst Western Digital Corp. donegan@stanton.TCC.COM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DEC now makes a microwave bridge for Ethernet, called Metrowave. It costs ~$30K for both ends of the link, but doesn't include the radio itself, according to my DECdirect catalog. You may want to talk with your local telco some more, though. When faced with a similar situation, we discovered that the right to attach stuff to their poles is a *tariffed*, *cheap* service, normally used by the power company and the cable TV companies. So we ran our own fiber on their poles. smb@research.att.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was given to understand that Vitalink boxes are now available which are faster than T1. I could be wrong on this; if you're already using them, you probably know. --- Craig Jackson UUCP: {harvard!axiom,linus!axiom,ll-xn}!drilex!dricej BIX: cjackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 3) install remote repeaters connected by optical fiber: > Possible, but not likely. Optical cable would have to be provided > by a local utility company already having right of way. We enjoy > dealing with the local telephone company almost as much as > restoring large filesystems. > > 4) install a higher speed MAC level remote bridge with a digital radio link: > This is our first choice solution. We do have an unobstructed > line-of-sight path to the new building. So far we only know about one > product, the "MetroWave Bridge" from the brand D company. Are there > other remote bridge products on the market for use with link speeds > higher than T-1 rates? Our choice is probably limited to protocol > insensitive bridges. What types of digital radios are people using? > Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned, but I prefer option 3. The Telephone company can't be that bad can they? Maybe I'm not much versed in option 4 but unless it's microwave wouldn't weather conditions and solar flares effect it's accuracy? If it does the phone company can't be worse than the in-security of munged data. UUCP !ihup!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!sp7040!obie!wsccs!bill {WSC Utah} ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In article <1037@nusdhub.UUCP> rwhite@nusdhub.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes: >in article <3561@fluke.COM>, norm@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Seethoff) says: >> >> >> Our Facilities Department's passion to move people into separate buildings >> continues. We are now faced with the need to extend our engineering Ethernet >> to a new building. >> .This may be a dumb question but: Do you have a "real land route" . between your buildings. We were having similar problems . [i.e. choice 3] with moving our trunks and extensions . up and down the block here. We got clear title to a . strip of land running down the block and then called the . phone company.... This is actually very practical. We did the same thing. Well, the ROWs we needed cross city streets so our ducts are 30 feet below the surface of the street, under the city's sewers and stuff. But it works! We have fiber linking our 9 different buildings now, and as much twisted pair as we can use with plenty of duct space for more if we need it. I speak for myself, not the company. Phil Ngai, {ucbvax,decwrl,allegra}!amdcad!phil or phil@amd.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- in article <3561@fluke.COM>, norm@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Seethoff) says: > > > Our Facilities Department's passion to move people into separate buildings > continues. We are now faced with the need to extend our engineering Ethernet > to a new building. > > Options we have considered: > > 1) get the Facilities manager fired: > 2) install more Vitalink TranLAN bridges with T-1 lines: > 3) install remote repeaters connected by optical fiber: > Possible, but not likely. Optical cable would have to be provided > 4) install a higher speed MAC level remote bridge with a digital radio link: This may be a dumb question but: Do you have a "real land route" between your buildings. We were having similar problems [i.e. choice 3] with moving our trunks and extensions up and down the block here. We got clear title to a strip of land running down the block and then called the phone company.... We hade them: 1) dig a hole [trench] 2) lay a cable [cheaper w/phone company than outside help] 3) lay four empty conduits with the cable 4) cut all our CO-copper over onto the cable 5) mount/burry a junction behind each building This got us: 1) a nice plot of freshly turned earth 2) off the many-months-of-pain waiting lists for all our service change orders 3) places to have outside parties [like AT&T] lay things like interduct w/fiber 4) off the very expensive "rented" CO-copper for every circut on the block 5) the ability to go anywhere, anytime, without having to mother-may-I the CO This endevor was, and still is, ***__VERY!__*** cost effective. Having bought the copper and the trench once, we are now free of our CO for every on-site [i.e. 6 large buildings] telecom/data/lan connection we care to make. Robert C. White Jr. - nusdhub!rwhite ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wasn't sure exactly how VitaLink was getting more bandwidth, but multiple T1's sounds reasonable. I suspect that you can get a microwave that will do multiple T1s, and it might be cheaper than LAN-specific equipment. (The real market is in T1 for digital voice.) We have two locations in New York, and one in New Jersey. As I understand it, we have about 20 T1 links for voice & data each between our downtown building and New Jersey, and our midtown building and New Jersey. Between downtown and midtown, we can't get line-of-sight, and therefore pay for about 6 T1s from the telco. Isn't New York wonderful? In any case, these T1s are actually all on microwave; maybe you could set up something like that. -- Craig Jackson UUCP: {harvard!axiom,linus!axiom,ll-xn}!drilex!dricej BIX: cjackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microwave Bypass Systems, Inc., Cambridge MA, 617/494-8700 Microwave Networks, Inc., Houston TX, 713/495-7123 Both of these companies build/integrate the solution you propose. We're having installed now a microwave/digital radio/ethernet bridge system from Microwave Bypass to link two ethernets at the ethernet packet level (protocol independent so we can use DECnet and TCP/IP) beween two buildings five miles apart. While I believe this is the best solution on paper (and at one-fifth the price of a fiber link from the local RBOC), ours has yet to work. MBS has been troubleshooting our link for a couple of months now. Our situation is complicated because we do not have line of sight, and have to use a relay on a water tower. However, I am optimistic that it _will_ work, perhaps even today (they're realigning the dishes this morning). For a line-of-site situation where a relay is not necessary, expect to pay about $50,000. This includes for both ends antenna, radios, transmitters and receivers, ethernet-microwave interface (essentially a ethernet transceiver modified to talk to the microwave transmitter and receiver instead of a baseband coxial cable), and an ethernet bridge. John Sloan, The SPOTS Group Wright State University Research Building CSNET: jsloan@SPOTS.Wright.Edu 3171 Research Blvd., Kettering, OH 45420 UUCP: ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan +1-513-259-1384 +1-513-873-2491 Logical Disclaimer: belong(opinions,jsloan). belong(opinions,_):-!,fail.