dmc@videovax.Tek.COM (Donald M. Craig) (06/14/88)
I am looking for feedback on the quality and reliability of the slide latch mechanism used on the DB-15 ethernet connectors. I have used these myself for the past five years, and have discovered a number of problems with them. Additionally, various nasty remarks about these connectors have surfaced on the net from time to time. The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers has a standard known as RP-125 which specifies a parallel digital television interface. The connector for that interface is a 25 pin D-type (DB-25) with a slide latch like the ethernet connector. The RP-125 standard is up for revision, and the Tektronix representative submitted a note from me outlining my experience and problems with the ethernet slide latch connector. Sun Microsystems also has a representative on the RP-125 committee. He has asked the component engineer for connectors at Sun if there was any data concerning the mechanical integrity of the slide latch locking mechanism used in the ethernet connector. Here is the response: "I am the Component Engineer for connectors at Sun. In regards to your question concerning the Ethernet DB-15, these are used through out industry by the millions, in many applications. I am not aware of any significant problems with mechanical integrity of the lock, or for that matter with the connector in any aspect. If the connector is properly installed and handled in a semi-reasonable manner you should not have any problems. As far as Sun is concerned, usage of D-Sub connectors in general, that is various sizes and configurations, will probably increase. When all things are considered it often turns out to be the best way to go! Hope this helps!!!" In the face of this informal statement by Sun's component engineer, I now need data about other people's experience with the DB-15 slide latch ethernet connector. Help save another standard from the same fate! Please send your comments email to: dmc@tv.tv.tek.com or tektronix!videovax!dmc Thank you, Don Craig Tektronix Television Systems
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (06/14/88)
dmc@videovax.Tek.COM (Donald M. Craig) writes: > I am looking for feedback on the quality and reliability of > the slide latch mechanism used on the DB-15 ethernet connectors. In a nutshell, they suck! There is no doubt that the single most common cause of problems in our entire network (19 Suns, a Vax, and maybe a dozen Macintoshes and PCs) is loose ethernet tranciever cables, particularly on the backs of Sun-3/50's which provide no mechanical support for the cable at all. On our rack-mount systems, we support the cables with cable ties to various convenient supports. On our deskside suns, we've constructed assorted mechanical strain reliefs. Some of our 3/50's seem to be OK with just wedging the cable behind a desk but some are a constant cause of trouble. For the worse ones, we install a support bracked we've designed which helps a little (it's just a plexiglass bar notched to fit on the card extractor ears and with cutouts for the various cables and attachment points for cable ties in the appropriate places). > "I am the Component Engineer for connectors at Sun. In regards to your > question concerning the Ethernet DB-15 [...] I am not aware of any > significant problems with mechanical integrity of the lock, or for that > matter with the connector in any aspect. I'm not given to public flamage, but this guy must have his head firmly wedged in a dark place. If he's not aware of any problems, it because he hasn't been listening. I've complained loudly about this on the net before. I've complained to Sun field service. I've complained to Sun tech support. Clearly those complaints havn't gotten back to the right people. The stupid little stamped sheet metal clips are simply not strong enough to secure a connector with a big fat, heavy, and fairly stiff tranciever cable on it. As long as the cable is secured so if can't move if accidentally moved, it's OK. For example, on the tranciever ends, we lash the cable to the main ethernet trunk cable with 2 (or sometimes 3) wire ties a few inches away. But on systems which might move a little (like a deskside Sun on wheels), or in situations where the cable might be disturbed (like hanging off the back of a desk) forget it. What was wrong with good-old RS-232-style screws? Or, if they really wanted a tool-less installation, why not Macintosh-style knurled screws, or maybe even centronics-style wire bails? We recently got a 3-Com 3C503 ethernet card for an IBM-PC. The connector is a bit different, with screw holes instead of binding posts. Unfortunately, to use the screw holes you need a special adaptor bracket which I havn't been able to locate yet (OK, we just got the thing; I havn't had a chance to look very hard). It looks like it might be a bit more secure. Our Interlan ethernet board for the vax has a slight variation on the slide connector which looks like it might be marginally stronger (it has small extra ridges along the sides), but I doubt it would still be strong enough if we weren't able to lash the cable to various places in the vax's rack frame. I really don't know what the DIX guys had in mind when they designed this connector. Administering a network is hard enough without having to worry about which $5 connector is falling out. -- Roy Smith, System Administrator Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net
cliff@se-sd.sandiego.NCR.COM (Cliff Bamford) (06/15/88)
The problem is that it's impossibly impractical to give that connector
"reasonable care" in the field. Regardless of type, connectors always
seem to be just-barely-visible and just-barely-out-of-reach. The D-sub
requires good visibility (to tell which way the slider is slid) and
good tactile access to [un]couple. Since these conditions rarely obtain,
THE !#@$%&* CONNECTER DRIVES PEOPLE CRAZY.
Which is one of the reasons you see so many of them torn asunder, at
which point they become worse than useless. Except as mute testimony
to the limits of human patience.
--
cliff.bamford@sandiego.ncr.com (619)693-5724 {ucsd,cbosgd}!ncr-sd!se-sd!cliffron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie) (06/15/88)
Yep, by the way, we've gone and replaced the slide clips with the good old RS-232 screws and threaded inserts on all the Ethernet cables of importance. -Ron
bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (06/15/88)
I'll second Roy Smith's gripes about those slide-latch ethernet connectors to quote Roy: "In a nutshell, they suck!" Actually, if there were some negative pressure they might work... We have around 100 Suns here and other assorted items (this lousy slide-latch is not unique to Suns by any means, it's ubiquitous) and they're always falling out, the worst catastrophes occur when they fall out of centralized server machines, we've been out for hours and hours while some poor operator tries to figure out what the problem is (they're learning, we're all learning.) Worse, much worse, it falls out of MY SUN all the time, like when I swing my chair around to gulp coffee or some other critical maneuver and brush the deskside tower, to get it to stay back in I have to re-arch the cable at a precarious angle so it provides pressure towards the plug. Now *that's* unacceptable, the public be damned. I'll also add a vote to the Mac-like knurled screws, that would be the ticket. -Barry Shein, Boston University
bae@ati.tis.llnl.gov (Hwa Jin Bae) (06/15/88)
In general, I don't like DIX 15 pin adapter without any secure screws.
My Symmetric 375 comes with 9 pin output which can be interface to
regular transceiver with a 9 pin to 15 pin drop cable. You can use
RS-232 like screw attachment with it, and it's so much nicer than SUN's
way of doing attachment. But then again you can always use "Crazy Glue"
or something... 8-)
---
Hwa Jin Bae | Standard excuses...not responsible.../dev/null...etc.
Control Data Corp. | (415) 463 - 6865
4234 Hacienda Drive | bae@tis.llnl.gov (Internet)
Pleasanton, CA 94566 | {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg}!lll-tis!bae (UUCP)dewey@execu.UUCP (dewey henize) (06/15/88)
In article <5047@videovax.Tek.COM> dmc@videovax.Tek.COM (Donald M. Craig) writes: >I am looking for feedback on the quality and reliability of >the slide latch mechanism used on the DB-15 ethernet connectors. [ Info on use of the info... } >Sun Microsystems also has a representative on the RP-125 committee. >He has asked the component engineer for connectors at Sun >if there was any data concerning the mechanical integrity of the >slide latch locking mechanism used in the ethernet connector. >Here is the response: > >"I am the Component Engineer for connectors at Sun. In regards to your >question concerning the Ethernet DB-15, these are used through out >industry by the millions, in many applications. I am not aware of any >significant problems with mechanical integrity of the lock, or for that >matter with the connector in any aspect. If the connector is properly >installed and handled in a semi-reasonable manner you should not have >any problems. As far as Sun is concerned, usage of D-Sub connectors in >general, that is various sizes and configurations, will probably >increase. When all things are considered it often turns out to be the >best way to go! Hope this helps!!!" > >In the face of this informal statement by Sun's component engineer, >I now need data about other people's experience with the DB-15 slide >latch ethernet connector. Here at Execucom we have a slightly different term for this 'device'. I won't put it out on the net, however, since this probably isn't the place to put adjectives regarding personal ancestory or public sexual habits. Suffice it to say that if the person who designed the slide latch connector were to come here and visit, his/her employer should only buy a one-way ticket - we'd be able to ship what remains there were back in a shoebox! Seriously, those things are a joke. When each and every part is made to exact and perfect spec, they seem to work ok (at least until you touch them in some fashion). The ones we got with at least 3 of our Suns and the cables that we also got from Sun seem to be made to different specs entirely. We had to do a good bit of reverse engineering to get them to handle the normal vibration of someone merely walking in the office (concrete floors). Junk em. Use screws. Please, since you are protecting this 'Component Engineer', help him/her/it :-) become aware of 'significant problems'. -- =============================================================================== | execu!dewey Dewey Henize @ Execucom Systems Corp 512/346-3008 | | You don't think my employer APPROVES of these ideas, do you?? Sheesh! | ===============================================================================
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (root) (06/15/88)
In article <3352@phri.UUCP>, roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > dmc@videovax.Tek.COM (Donald M. Craig) writes: > > > "I am the Component Engineer for connectors at Sun. In regards to your > > question concerning the Ethernet DB-15 [...] I am not aware of any > > significant problems with mechanical integrity of the lock, or for that > > matter with the connector in any aspect. > To the "Component Engineer" at Sun: I submit Sir, that you must not use your own product. At Stony Brook we have ~100 Suns of mixed types and I can attest that the metal slide lock causes us NO END of trouble. > What was wrong with good-old RS-232-style screws? Or, if they really > wanted a tool-less installation, why not Macintosh-style knurled screws, or > maybe even centronics-style wire bails? We recently got a 3-Com 3C503 I would like to see a connector like the one used on the uVAX (?) console cable: Long screw posts with a knob on the end that allows finger tightening of the screw. I understand that the slide is somehow a standard, but if it "don't work" then fix the bloody thing. > Roy Smith, System Administrator > Public Health Research Institute > 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 > {allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net Rick Spanbauer SUNY/Stony Brook
rdt@teddy.UUCP (Ron D. Thornton) (06/15/88)
Many of the negative comments seem to involve Sun systems. While the slide latch is a pain, the fact that Sun has incorrectly assembled it just aggravates the problem. The slider is supposed to be attached directly to connector shell but Sun seperated them by the thickness of the rear mounting panel (on the 3/160 and probably everything else). The connector shells and pins do not completely mate because of this, loosing all the additional mechanical support you should have there and making the connection "somewhat" flakey. -Ron-
dlnash@ut-emx.UUCP (Donald L. Nash) (06/15/88)
In article <23340@bu-cs.BU.EDU>, bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) writes: > > We have around 100 Suns here and other assorted items (this lousy > slide-latch is not unique to Suns by any means, it's ubiquitous) and > they're always falling out, the worst catastrophes occur when they ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^ > fall out of centralized server machines, we've been out for hours and > hours while some poor operator tries to figure out what the problem is > (they're learning, we're all learning.) > It really gets interesting when the cable falls out just enough that the transmit wire gets disconnected but the receive wire is still in place. Then you have a machine which can listen but not talk. We had this happen on a MicroVAX II and almost went into a panic thinking the DEQNA had died. > I'll also add a vote to the Mac-like knurled screws, Me, too. Don Nash UUCP: ...!{allegra, seismo!ut-sally}!ut-emx!dlnash ARPA: dlnash@emx.utexas.edu BITNET: DLNASH@UTADNX, D.NASH@UTCHPC THENET: UTADNX::DLNASH, UTCHPC::D.NASH UUU UUU U U The University of Texas at Austin U TTTTUTTTTTTTTT Computation Center U T U TT T U U TT "The world is basically non-linear." UUUUUUU TT TT TTTT
eshop@saturn.ucsc.edu (Jim Warner) (06/15/88)
Ron makes a good point. Most of the problems people experience with slide latch connectors wouldn't happen if Sun had followed the specification. The position of the "D" connector on the OUTSIDE of the panel is VERY CLEARLY called out in the 802.3 specification. I claim that no connector system will be satisfactory if the engineers that impliment it don't read the specification. What I like most about the slide lock system is that I can get right angle hoods on the DTE end of transceiver cables. I can't see how you could do that with a screw lock system. I do keep a small stash of slide lock clips to use as replacements for the ones that users mangle beyond recognition. I find that I don't have to replace very many of them. I'd much rather replace a slide lock clip than have to deal with tapped holes where j-random user has mangled the threads by trying to jam an English screw into a metric hole. Jim Warner (eshop@saturn.ucsc.edu)
mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) (06/16/88)
- Many of the negative comments seem to involve Sun systems. While the slide
- latch is a pain, the fact that Sun has incorrectly assembled it just
- aggravates the problem. The slider is supposed to be attached directly to
- connector shell but Sun seperated them by the thickness of the rear mounting
- panel (on the 3/160 and probably everything else). The connector shells and
- pins do not completely mate because of this, loosing all the additional
- mechanical support you should have there and making the connection "somewhat"
- flakey.
Maybe so, but we have problems with these @#$%^&* connectors on our
other workstations as well (uVAXes, VAXstations, Apollos, PCs, etc.).
Sun redesigning their slide latch stuff may help, but the basic latch
design still sucks big.
Mike Khaw
--
internet: mkhaw@teknowledge.arpa
uucp: {uunet|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|uw-beaver}!mkhaw%teknowledge-vaxc.arpa
hardcopy: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303tpmsph@ecsvax.UUCP (Thomas P. Morris) (06/16/88)
In my limited experience with 3 hosts and 10 terminal servers and 2 DELNI's, those $#%@%&^%$ slide latches on the ethernet db15s are a real problem. As has been pointed out before, they are not built well enough to handle the actual weight and strain of the bulky transceiver cable, and they don't do their job as a result! Screws or knurled knobs or wire bails a la IEEE488 or Centronics would be a welcome relief! For our DELNIS we had to cobble together a custom strain-relief panel. For the servers we ended up tie-wrapping the cables to the frame supports. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Morris BITNET: TOM@UNCSPHVX UNC School of Public Health UUCP : ...!mcnc!ecsvax!tpmsph ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Morris BITNET: TOM@UNCSPHVX UNC School of Public Health UUCP : ...!mcnc!ecsvax!tpmsph -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
donegan@stanton.TCC.COM (Steven P. Donegan) (06/16/88)
How many of you fools still swear at slide locks, experience massive down time due to same? Well, less than a dollars worth of hardware and the guts to mess with the 'standard' (read holy) connectors will buy you much peace of mind. We convert ALL slide-lock cables and devices to SCREW-DOWN style. Haven't lost a single server or transceiver due to our un-holy conversion to a much more secure fastening method. -- Steven P. Donegan Sr. Telecommunications Analyst Western Digital Corp. donegan@stanton.TCC.COM
bob@rel.eds.com (Bob Leffler) (06/16/88)
In article <5047@videovax.Tek.COM>, dmc@videovax.Tek.COM (Donald M. Craig) writes: > Sun Microsystems also has a representative on the RP-125 committee. > "I am the Component Engineer for connectors at Sun. In regards to your .... > significant problems with mechanical integrity of the lock, or for that > matter with the connector in any aspect. If the connector is properly .... > In the face of this informal statement by Sun's component engineer, > I now need data about other people's experience with the DB-15 slide I can speak only from my own experience. We have many workstations located in the Engineer's cube at GM. Most of them are connected via a transceiver cable with the sliding connector that you are refering to in the previous article. We experienced at least one connector that was disconnected at least once a week. We would then have to dispatch somebody to the site, trouble shoot the problem, then plug the connector back in. Needless to say, this is very labor intensive and expensive. Almost all of our network problems turn out to be transceiver cables that are unplugged. I reported this problem to one of our vendors (Sun :-) ). I stated that in my environment, we would prefer a connector that could be fasten by screws. Local Sun Field service stated that they had received other similar complaints from other customers and that they would pass the suggestion back to their corporate office. -- Bob Leffler - EDS, GM Truck & Bus Account (313)456-5375 bob@rel.eds.com or {uunet!edsews, rutgers, umix}!rel!bob Opinions expressed may not be those of my employer.
dnwcv@dcatla.UUCP (William C. VerSteeg) (06/16/88)
The 15-pin ethernet connector with a sliding latch has been the point of failure for more problems on my networks than all other problems combined. The problems have gotten even worse recently. It seems that in search of the extra buck, most companies are using thinner and weaker sheet metal on the sliding lock. This bends and causes intermittent problems. Do yourself a vavor and don't propigate this abomination to another hardware set. Standard Disclaimer Bill VerSteeg DCA
tsa@edai.ed.ac.uk (Tom Alexander) (06/16/88)
From article <3352@phri.UUCP>, by roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith): > dmc@videovax.Tek.COM (Donald M. Craig) writes: >> I am looking for feedback on the quality and reliability of >> the slide latch mechanism used on the DB-15 ethernet connectors. > > In a nutshell, they suck! There is no doubt that the single most > common cause of problems in our entire network is loose ethernet tranciever > cables, particularly on the backs of Sun's which provide no mechanical > support for the cable at all. I agree entirely with the above comment. These bent bits of tin, laughingly described as retaining clips, are completely useless. They may work reasonably well with light, flexible cables but they certainly do nothing when used with the heavy, stiff transceiver drop cables. >> "I am the Component Engineer for connectors at Sun. In regards to your >> question concerning the Ethernet DB-15 [...] I am not aware of any >> significant problems with mechanical integrity of the lock, or for that >> matter with the connector in any aspect. > > I'm not given to public flamage, but this guy must have his head > firmly wedged in a dark place. If he's not aware of any problems, it because > he hasn't been listening. I've complained loudly about this on the net > before. I've complained to Sun field service. I've complained to Sun tech > support. Clearly those complaints havn't gotten back to the right people. > > The stupid little stamped sheet metal clips are simply not strong > enough to secure a connector with a big fat, heavy, and fairly stiff > tranciever cable on it. As long as the cable is secured so if can't move if > accidentally moved, it's OK. For example, on the tranciever ends, we lash > the cable to the main ethernet trunk cable with 2 (or sometimes 3) wire ties > a few inches away. But on systems which might move a little (like a deskside > Sun on wheels), or in situations where the cable might be disturbed (like > hanging off the back of a desk) forget it. > > What was wrong with good-old RS-232-style screws? Or, if they really > wanted a tool-less installation, why not Macintosh-style knurled screws, or > maybe even centronics-style wire bails? Does this guy never talk to field service people. We have complained bitterly to several field service engineers over the years. Hoods for this type of connector with knurled finger screws are readily available. I should add that Sun are not the only workstation supplier using this useless bit of bent tin as tranceiver drop cable retaining clamps. > I really don't know what the DIX guys had in mind when they designed > this connector. Administering a network is hard enough without having to > worry about which $5 connector is falling out. > -- > Roy Smith, System Administrator > Public Health Research Institute > 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 > {allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net
jmg@cernvax.UUCP (jmg) (06/17/88)
One other funny (correlates with the bread and butter law): on the fan-out units which we have the connector has to be pushed upwards to lock. From then on some evil force (Isaac Newton had a word for it!) is constantly trying to unlock it again, and each slight movement helps this evil force. Oh, how simple it would have been to invert the connector. The force is against you! -- _ _ o | __ | jmg@cernvax.uucp | | | | _ / \ _ __ _ __ _| jmg@cernvax.bitnet | | | | |_) /_) | __/_) | (___\ | (_/ | J. M. Gerard, Div. DD, CERN, | | |_|_| \_/\___ \__/ \___| (_|_| \_|_ 1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland
billq@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Quayle) (06/17/88)
<<STEAM ON>> First off, I'd like to know who designed the slide-lock mechanism. Did they get fired for it? If not, they should have! I would gladly change every connector on my net to something real if a new standard was aggreed upon. Second point: Who the heck is responsible for positioning the watchdog reset button on the Sun 3 Motherboard directly next to said-flimsy-*ss-switch? This individual needs shock therapy! <<STEAM OFF>> W.R. Quayle Lab Coordinator - 52182 AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, Il Disclaimer: These thoughts are all mine! (My that felt good!)
wunder@hp-sde.SDE.HP.COM (Walter Underwood) (06/18/88)
HP has used another latch mechnism for D-connectors. There are notches in
the short sides of one connector, and simple, L-shaped catches on
the other connector.
Press Here
| |
| V
| XXX
| |-------------------
| | |
|-\ |-| | |----------\
| \| | | \
| | | \------
| | |
| | |
| |
No moving parts. The latch is connected to the shell with spring
steel. The notch is part of a casting that surrounds the connector.
These seem to hold well, and connect/disconnect easily.
I think we were using 9 pin D-connectors and video cable, so there was
not as much stress as we see on transceiver cables, but it was still
a serious test. I'll try to dig up the part numbers of the products
that used this.
Screws are great, but the original article was looking for a
quick-disconnect solution.
wundersteve@alberta.UUCP (Steve Sutphen) (06/20/88)
We have been using these slide lock connectors since before we installed Ethernet 5 years ago (they were also used on the HP 2621 terminals keyboards). While I will grant that we have had some problems with them, I wouldn't say that they have been a constant headache -- maybe our people take more care in the installation and use of equipment than at other sites. If someone is doing a new specification as was indicated in the original article then I think that they should take a serious look at the factors involved. I think that a major part of the problem is that 1) right angle shells are not as commonly available as they should be and people installing the cables don't bother choosing the correct connector (right angle vs strait). 2) the Transciever cable is part of the problem - it is very stiff, large and heavy. This excrabates all the other problems. I would not say that jack screws as are used on RS-232 connectors are completely fool proof though either. We have had our share of 1) stripped female locking nut 2) loose female locking screws because of binding of the jack screw, or simply beacuse the nut loosens (even when "properly" installed). For a while we would go through all the screws on new equipment and tightnen up the female locking screws. I even thought about putting locktite on some of the ones that were more problematic (on the old Sun-100 chassis). steve.
steve@edm.UUCP (Stephen Samuel) (06/20/88)
From article <23206@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA>, by mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw): > - Many of the negative comments seem to involve Sun systems. While the slide > - latch is a pain, the fact that Sun has incorrectly assembled it just > - aggravates the problem. The slider is supposed to be attached directly to Statistical point: a LOT of the ethernet machines out there are SUNs, so it's not too surprising that most of the complaints are about ethernet machines. We've got an IRIS that has the same problems with the tranciever cables. Our VAX doesn't have any problems, but it's got all sorts of strain- relief hardware in the back of the cabinet. I agree that the slide-lock is a good idea, but somthing like the centronics connector is needed that is a bit more strain-resistant. With that thick mother of a cable, the DB-15 is just too mechanically susceptible to strain to be mated with an equally weak slide-lock. Find a connector that can almost stand on it's own THEN add the slide lock to complete the picture. -- ------------- Stephen Samuel Disclaimer: You betcha! {ihnp4,ubc-vision,mnetor,vax135}!alberta!edm!steve BITNET: USERZXCV@UOFAMTS
mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) (06/21/88)
From article <3166@edm.UUCP>, by steve@edm.UUCP (Stephen Samuel):
- From article <23206@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA>, by mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw):
-> - Many of the negative comments seem to involve Sun systems. While the slide
-> - latch is a pain, the fact that Sun has incorrectly assembled it just
-> - aggravates the problem. The slider is supposed to be attached directly to
Just for the record, those are someone else's words, not mine.
Mike Khaw
--
internet: mkhaw@teknowledge.arpa
uucp: {uunet|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|uw-beaver}!mkhaw%teknowledge-vaxc.arpa
hardcopy: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303