pat@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Pat Thaler) (10/30/90)
In the interim before IEEE has 10BASE-T in publication, you can order a copy of the final draft (draft 11) from AlphGraphics. It is IEEE 802 Document 3.17 P802.3I/D11-90: 10BASE-T Draft 11. Address: IEEE Computer Society Documents c/o AlphaGraphics, Attn: P. Thrush 10210 N. 35 Ave, Suite A&B Phoenix, AZ 85051 Phone: (602) 863-0999 They charge $.08 (US 4th class), $.09 (US Air Mail), $.15 (Int'l Air Mail), or $.07 + Acct # (Fed Ex), all prices per page plus a $4 handling charge. IEEE 802.3i is 62 pages. It is not available through FTP because of the figures. Pat Thaler Chair of IEEE 802.3
Andy.Linton@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Andy Linton) (10/31/90)
In article <2230118@hprnd.rose.hp.com>, pat@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Pat Thaler) writes: |> charge. IEEE 802.3i is 62 pages. It is not available through FTP |> because of the figures. RFCs with figures are made available by publishing them in Postscript. Surely this could be done with this and the other 802.n specs. Surely the documentation defining standards should be readily available so that all may know what they say and comply!
spurgeon@.uucp (Charles E. Spurgeon) (10/31/90)
>In the interim before IEEE has 10BASE-T in publication, you can order a >copy of the final draft (draft 11) from AlphGraphics. It is >IEEE 802 Document 3.17 P802.3I/D11-90: 10BASE-T Draft 11. Thanks for the access info on the 10BASE-T spec, Pat. Thanks also for being such a responsive chairperson and doing such a great job keeping us informed both about the status of the spec and about the technical issues of the spec. Your postings have made it easier for me to deal with the rapid evolution of the Ethernet market toward 10BASE-T. While on the subject of standards, do you know if there are any standards efforts underway for Ethernet hubs? It appears that the advent of the 10BASE-T technology has unleashed a huge hub market, and there seem to be as many ways to build, configure, and manage a hub as there are vendors selling them. Do you think there's any hope for some formal hub specs? Thanks, -ces Charles E. Spurgeon Network Grenade Juggling Dept. | spurgeon@emx.utexas.edu | University of Texas at Austin | ...!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!spurgeon| -------------------------------------------------------------------------
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (11/01/90)
In article <1990Oct30.200446.4716@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Andy.Linton@comp.vuw.ac.nz writes: >Surely this could be done with this and the other 802.n specs. Surely >the documentation defining standards should be readily available so that >all may know what they say and comply! It is readily available, in paper form. Online copies have two problems: 1. It is too easy to slightly alter a copy and then pass it along to your customers as proof that you are standard. 2. Standards organizations often are self-financing based mostly on sales of printed copies. Opinions vary about the importance of these two issues, but #1 is *not* an imaginary problem or an excuse invented by moneygrubbing bureaucrats. IEEE got burned a few years ago when there was some experimenting with machine-readable distribution. -- "I don't *want* to be normal!" | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology "Not to worry." | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
ado@elsie.nci.nih.gov (Arthur David Olson) (11/01/90)
> > Surely the documentation defining standards should be readily available > > so that all may know what they say and comply! > > It is too easy to slightly alter a copy and then pass it along to your > customers as proof that you are standard. So why not borrow some technology from, for example, credit card companies? Little holograms on standard documents would improve the aesthetics to boot. Might not notarization also be a possibility? -- Arthur David Olson ado@elsie.nci.nih.gov ADO and Elsie are Ampex and Borden trademarks
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (11/02/90)
In article <90336@elsie.nci.nih.gov> ado@elsie.nci.nih.gov (Arthur David Olson) writes: >> It is too easy to slightly alter a copy and then pass it along to your >> customers as proof that you are standard. > >So why not borrow some technology from, for example, credit card companies? >Little holograms on standard documents would improve the aesthetics to boot. >Might not notarization also be a possibility? How do you do this for machine-readable copies, which was the subject of the discussion? (Yes, there are digital-signature schemes... most of them not widely available, and some of them subject to patent protection.) In case this wasn't meant seriously -- in which case it should have had ":-)" on it -- note that while the problem exists in theory for paper copies, it is vastly harder (and more expensive) for them than for digital copies. Actually, there is interest, last I heard, in the idea of distributing machine-readable standards on CDROMs, which have the advantage that mere mortals are not equipped to (mis)duplicate them. -- "I don't *want* to be normal!" | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology "Not to worry." | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
ado@elsie.nci.nih.gov (Arthur David Olson) (11/02/90)
> > > It is too easy to slightly alter a copy and then pass it along to your > > > customers as proof that you are standard. > > So why not borrow some technology from, for example, credit card companies? > > Little holograms on standard documents would improve the aesthetics to boot. > > Might not notarization also be a possibility? > How do you do this for machine-readable copies, which was the subject of > the discussion? Sorry...I thought the problem was folks modifying the machine-readable stuff, running off a paper copy, and claiming the paper copy was legitimate. -- Arthur David Olson ado@elsie.nci.nih.gov ADO and Elsie are Ampex and Borden trademarks
pat@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Pat Thaler) (11/06/90)
> >In the interim before IEEE has 10BASE-T in publication, you can order a > >copy of the final draft (draft 11) from AlphGraphics. It is > >IEEE 802 Document 3.17 P802.3I/D11-90: 10BASE-T Draft 11. I have been informed that since IEEE 802.3i is now a standard but not yet published, you should order it from: IEEE Standards, 445 Hoes Lane, Piscataway, NJ 08855, ph: (800)678-4333 I was told that a charge would be made for the reproduction and mailing cost. Once published, it can be ordered from IEEE Sales at the same street address and phone. IEEE 802.3i should be enough to identify which document you want. If you already have draft 9 or 10, I reccomend that you wait for the published version since there were only editorial changes between drafts 9, 10, and 11. As another poster pointed out, IEEE holds the copyright and gets to control the distribution. Prior to approval by the standards board, distribution of IEEE 802 drafts is done through AlphaGraphics, after approval it is done directly by IEEE. > > While on the subject of standards, do you know if there are any > standards efforts underway for Ethernet hubs? There is already a standard for the behavior of IEEE 802.3 repeaters which is what most of the devices sold as hubs are. This covers the behavior of the repeater with respect to the 802.3 segments connected to it. That is, how long it takes to transmit a received packet out the other ports, how collisions are enforced, restoration of preamble, etc. It does not cover aspects such as the form of the repeater, whether it is box or a card cage with plug in modules. My personal opinion is that it would not be appropriate for IEEE 802.3 to attempt to standardize that. The current repeater standard also does not cover management for hubs/repeaters. There is a task force of IEEE 802.3 which is working on a hub management draft so that repeaters could have interoperable management. The hub management task force currently has a draft out for IEEE 802.3 ballot. Gazing into the crystal ball that was issued to me when I accepted this job:-), I expect that another IEEE 802.3 ballot or at least a confirmation ballot will be needed before they are ready for sponsor ballot. (If you have the second edition (1990) of ISO/IEC 8802-3 [IEEE 802.3], you will find the repeater standard in section 9. It can also be found as 802.3c in the _Supplements_to_802.3_CSMA/CD_. Beware, the first edition of ISO/IEC 8802-3 and the pre-ISO printings of IEEE 802.3 had a tentative version of section 9 which is not entirely accurate. The obsolete version of section 9 describes a 2-port repeater, the current version describes an multi-ported repeater. (One of the interesting challenges in drafting it was to come up with notation to describe the behavior of an n-ported device.)) Pat Thaler
spurgeon@.uucp (Charles E. Spurgeon) (11/08/90)
In article <2230126@hprnd.rose.hp.com> pat@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Pat Thaler) writes: >> While on the subject of standards, do you know if there are any >> standards efforts underway for Ethernet hubs? ... >There is already a standard for the behavior of IEEE 802.3 repeaters which >is what most of the devices sold as hubs are. This covers the behavior of >the repeater with respect to the 802.3 segments connected to it. Thanks for the pointer. While looking through my draft copy of the 10BASE-T specs I noticed that a new section has been created called "System Considerations for Multi-segment Networks." This section (section 13) looks like it is meant to cover configuration issues for multiple hubs/repeaters linked with a variety of media. Section 13 looks like a good place to start in answering the question of where to find information on hub/repeater configuration that meets 802.3 specs. This section appears to be a collection of configuration information that has been in the specs, but hasn't been collected in one place until now. Also included are some handy definitions (Collision Domain, Link Segment, Segment) and a summary of the delays for the various network media segments that are part of the Ethernet standards.