dmark@cs.buffalo.EDU (David Mark) (11/28/87)
HOW TO TELL WHICH WAY IS "UP"
David M. Mark, David Zubin, and Soteria Svorou
Cognitive Science Group, SUNY at Buffalo
_______________________________________________________________________
A group of us in the Cognitive Science group at SUNY at Buffalo
are interested in spatial reference in natural language. Among
the many applications are automated navigation-aids for car drivers,
and natural-langauge interfaces for geographic information systems.
One aspect of this topic involves the use of terms such as "up",
"down", "over", "out", "back", etc., in direction-giving and
other spatial language.
Reference frames are important aspects of spatial language. Many
of us are used to a cartesian reference frame consisting of two
orthogonal coordinate axes. However, in Hawaii and some other Pacific
Island, a polar coordinate system or radial grid is used, with
one funamental direction being the 'in-out' or 'seaward-mountainward'
axis, and the other being along the shoreline in one direction or the
other.
Also, while there appears to be a tendency to use "up" for north and
"down" for south, there are many exceptions. Some of these exceptions
seem to relate to: hills, escarpments, and other topographic
elevation changes; river flow directions; social gradients;
wind directions (?); and perhaps others.
We would be interested in examples of the use of non-cartesian
coordinate systems for specifying directions, and also of uses of
"up", "down", and other such terms in direction-giving and
spatial reference. Please be sure to include as much of the
following information as possible:
language of the 'informant' or situation; exact location of the
situation described; if possible, whether the 'informant' was a
newcomer or a long-time resident of the area referred to.
We will send a summary to all contributors, and summarize to the net if
there is interest. Of course, we would like to hear from others
working on the topic.
David M. Mark, Professor
Department of Geography, SUNY Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260
(716) 636-2283
uucp: ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!dmark
csnet: dmark@buffalo.csnet
internet: dmark@joey.cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet: GEODMM@UBVMS.BITNETmhb@wdl1.UUCP (Michael H. Bender) (11/30/87)
In the southern tip of the San Francisco Bay area it is common to refer to travel towards San Francisco as being North and the other direction as being South, even though the roads actually lead East and West at this point. I believe that this is an example of how people use "pseudo" or "local" coordinate systems that have littel to do with the real coordinates. Mike Bender
klee@klee.ads.com (Ken Lee) (12/01/87)
I think most people don't really use a formal coordinate system, unless they're
in very unknown territory. Here in California, directions are commonly given
as "toward {San Francisco, San Jose, LA, San Diego, or other large city}" or
"near exit XXX on Highway YYY".
I used to live in Hawaii and found that the mountain/ocean reference that you
mentioned is rarely used now (except among tourists). A more common reference
system is to name neighborhoods. I suppose this is common in other areas with
distinct, deep-rooted neighborhoods (e.g., Boston, New York).
I often hike in the mountains near here. I could use my compass to determine
bearings, etc., but that's not very useful when there are alot of obsticals. I
usually determine my directions from a map (oriented north/south), but remember
them as "toward that mountain" or "up the canyon" or "along the river".
Hope this is helpful.
Ken Lee
klee@ads.arpaandrea@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Andrea K. Frankel) (12/01/87)
In article <3540002@wdl1.UUCP> mhb@wdl1.UUCP (Michael H. Bender) writes: >In the southern tip of the San Francisco Bay area it is common to >refer to travel towards San Francisco as being North and the other >direction as being South, even though the roads actually lead East and >West at this point. I've found this to be true all along the California coastline - the ocean establishes "west", and all other directions are relative to that. There are several places (such as approaching LA from the south) where the freeways are running east-west or nearly so, but that doesn't affect most people's perception that LA is north when you're approaching from San Diego. This orientation towards the ocean as the major landmark can really become habitual, to the point of creating massive disorientation when visiting the East Coast or when on the eastern side of a peninsula on the Bay! Andrea Frankel, Hewlett-Packard (San Diego Division) (619) 592-4664 "...like a song that's born to soar the sky" ______________________________________________________________________________ UUCP : ...hplabs!hp-sdd!andrea from {ihnp4|cbosgd|allegra|decvax|gatech|sun|tektronix} or ...hp-sdd!andrea from {hp-pcd|hpfcla|hpda|noscvax|gould9|sdcsvax} Internet : andrea%hp-sdd@ {nosc.mil | sdcsvax.ucsd.edu | hplabs.HP.com} CSNET : andrea%hp-sdd@hplabs.csnet USnail : 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA
jack@cs.hw.ac.uk (Jack Campin) (12/02/87)
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There is one kind of spatial language you want to avoid AT ALL COSTS in anything
that will be interacting with car drivers (or people controlling other fast and
dangerous machines) - "left" and "right". I can't remember the exact source
for this, but it has been shown that it is very much harder for people to map
these words onto specific spatial directions than to react to a pointing finger
or equivalent. (this is certainly true for me - if I'm navigating for someone
driving fast through town, I can't give accurate directions verbally; I have to
point). I believe there is a great deal of variation in people's ability
to do this.
-jack
--
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Mail: Jack Campin, Computing Science Department, University of Glasgow,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland (041 339 8855 x 6045)fpm@clsib21.UUCP (Frederick P Mikkelsen) (12/09/87)
In reviewing whether in California the nature of a coorindate system, whether Los Angeles is north or northwest of San Diego, or whether orientation is made off highways or mountains, it is necessary to understand the properties associated with the coordinate system, and the tools available to measure it. In recognizing what directions in a context specific setting mean, it is necessary to understand all the relative directions and distances that the situation supports, and the concepts of primary significance of objects in the orientation. "Continue DOWNWARD until you reach X reorient in the space to the position you believe to be (R,Th) and SHORTLY you will reach the point at which you should be able to IDENTIFY Y.
smith@COS.COM (Steve Smith) (12/16/87)
In article <1557@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk> jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: |There is one kind of spatial language you want to avoid AT ALL COSTS in |anything that will be interacting with car drivers (or people |controlling other fast and dangerous machines) - "left" and "right". I |can't remember the exact source for this, but it has been shown that it |is very much harder for people to map these words onto specific spatial |directions than to react to a pointing finger or equivalent. (this is |certainly true for me - if I'm navigating for someone driving fast |through town, I can't give accurate directions verbally; I have to |point). I believe there is a great deal of variation in people's ability |to do this. |-jack Yeah, I just love it when my passenger says "turn that way!" Especially when it's dark. Or when I really need to keep my eyes on the road. Or when the person giving directions is in the back seat. It's the old "verbal vs visual" argument. Which is "better" depends on context. Also, as in the example of giving directions, on physical possibilities. In general, giving directions is a real art. Ask any rally driver or navigator. -- __ -- Steve / / \ / "Truth is stranger than S. G. Smith I \ O | _ O \ I fiction because fiction smith@cos.com / \__/ / has to make sense."
gautier@ai.WISC.EDU (Jorge Gautier) (12/16/87)
Inarticle <1557@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk> jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: >There is one kind of spatial language >you want to avoid AT ALL COSTS in anything >that will be interacting with car drivers >(or people controlling other fast and >dangerous machines) - "left" and "right". ... It works just the opposite for me. I absolutely hate it when I'm driving and the person giving directions says ``go that way'' and points his/her finger. My eyes are too busy with the road to turn to the person and figure out where the finger is pointing. It is also difficult to interpret where it is pointing, since it usually is somewhere in front of the vehicle (or else it is too late to turn :-). The only time finger-pointing is useful comes when identifying to the driver an unfamiliar landmark related to giving directions: ``after THAT (point finger) red building, turn right.'' ``Left and right'' are unambiguous and objective. Anything else forces me to figure out what's going on inside the other person's head, distracting me from the task of controlling the vehicle. Jorge
reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) (12/17/87)
In article <1557@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk> jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: >There is one kind of spatial language you want to avoid AT ALL COSTS in anything >that will be interacting with car drivers (or people controlling other fast and >dangerous machines) - "left" and "right". I can't remember the exact source >for this, but it has been shown that it is very much harder for people to map >these words onto specific spatial directions than to react to a pointing finger >or equivalent. (this is certainly true for me - if I'm navigating for someone >driving fast through town, I can't give accurate directions verbally; I have to >point). I believe there is a great deal of variation in people's ability >to do this. Many people I know who are giving directions as I am driving tend to say things like: "I meant to tell you to turn back there (pointing out the rear view window) :-) I think that the problem lies in someone's ability to provide directions in enough time for the driver to react. Many times if we are not completely familiar with the path we are traversing, the direction givers must first get themselves oriented properly and look for the right place to turn. It is not simply a matter of saying "right" or "left", but also where to make the turn. Everything is further complicated if we are dealing with multiple lanes that require the driver to be in the appropriate lane to make a turn!!!! -- George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation {gatech,rutgers,attmail}!codas!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 Largo, FL 34649-2826
jzitt@dasys1.UUCP (Joe Zitt) (12/18/87)
In article <1557@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk>, jack@cs.hw.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: > > There is one kind of spatial language you want to avoid AT ALL COSTS in anything > that will be interacting with car drivers (or people controlling other fast and > dangerous machines) - "left" and "right". I can't remember the exact source > for this, but it has been shown that it is very much harder for people to map > these words onto specific spatial directions than to react to a pointing finger > or equivalent. (this is certainly true for me - if I'm navigating for someone > driving fast through town, I can't give accurate directions verbally; I have to > point). I believe there is a great deal of variation in people's ability > to do this. I agree with this in part -- I have extreme difficulty mapping the words "Right" and "Left" on to the proper directions, and am wrong as often as not. (I also have similar problems at times when dealing with abstraction such as "higher value", which, depending on context, can refer to either the greater number or a lesser number that appears higher on the list.) However, when I do point or wave my hands, a driver's reaction usually is "Do you want me to watch your hands or the road?" -- Joe Zitt {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri\ Big Electric Cat Public Unix {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!jzitt New York, NY, USA {sun}!hoptoad/
msb@sq.uucp (Mark Brader) (12/18/87)
[From a discussion in comp.cog-eng; I've added a cross-posting to sci.lang for the interest of readers there, but directed followups back to comp. cog-eng (or should I write that "comp.-"?) where things started.] > > ... avoid AT ALL COSTS in anything > > that will be interacting with car drivers ... - "left" and "right". ... > It works just the opposite for me. I absolutely hate it when I'm driving and > the person giving directions says ``go that way'' ... There is a simple explanation for this conflict. The first poster was writing from Britain, where left and right are reversed, so everyone is naturally confused. :-) Actually there is an interesting point here. In British driving jargon "left" and "right" are never used to refer to portions of the road as they are on this continent; they are "nearside" (i.e. the side of the road nearest the car in its normal position) and "offside" respectively. When I see these, my first reaction is to think "nearside, yes, that's the side of the car nearest me -- oh, wrong, it's the other side". Fortunately their most common use on road signs is "keep to nearside lane except when overtaking", and there it's obvious which they mean.* If we also used these terms, they would translate oppositely here to left and right. We would then be able to read things like "she opened the offside door and got into the car", whichever place it was written, and know that "she" was entering on the driver's side. Would this have been good? *Are British road signs better to be more verbose like this, or is the American style "Keep Right Except to Pass" better? I think the latter, but maybe each is best for its own audience. I know that when I see "Ped Xing" it looks silly; we mostly use US type signs here but that one either is spelled out or becomes the shorter term "Crosswalk", which I prefer. On a related topic, it may be pointed out that the terms "scroll up" and "scroll down" -- or the equivalent with arrows -- should never be used. Is the text moving up/down on the screen, or is the window moving up/down in the document? People disagree. Better to use "forward" or "back". Mark Brader "NO LEFT TURN INTO CLOVERLEAF ALLEY EXCEPT FROM THE Toronto MIDDLE LANE OF THE OUTER ROADWAY -- SUNDAYS AND utzoo!sq!msb ALTERNATE HOLIDAYS EXCLUDED UNLESS CHURCH SERVICES msb@sq.com ARE IN PROGRESS" [former Killington, VT, road sign]
george@hyper.lap.upenn.edu (George Zipperlen) (12/30/87)
In article <1987Dec17.211611.2262@sq.uucp> msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: > On a related topic, it may be pointed out that the terms "scroll up" and > "scroll down" -- or the equivalent with arrows -- should never be used. > Is the text moving up/down on the screen, or is the window moving up/down > in the document? People disagree. Better to use "forward" or "back". In a similar vein: "uploading" and "downloading". I've never been able to get these straight. My intuition is to make an analogy with upriver and downriver - the larger machine being closer to the sea (-:) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George Zipperlen george@apollo.lap.upenn.edu Language Analysis Project (215)-898-1954 University of Pennsylvania Generic Disclaimer Philadelphia, Pa. 19103 Cute saying --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mdg@smegma.UUCP (Marc de Groot) (01/07/88)
In article <2922@super.upenn.edu> george@apollo.lap.upenn.edu (George Zipperlen) writes: >In article <1987Dec17.211611.2262@sq.uucp> msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: >In a similar vein: "uploading" and "downloading". I've never been able to >get these straight. My intuition is to make an analogy with upriver and >downriver - the larger machine being closer to the sea (-:) I have an acquaintance who had problems with this class of terms; he dealt with it by finding a single word for both activities: uploading and downloading were collectivley referred to as offloading; plugs and sockets were collective- ly referred to as connectors. :-) -- Marc de Groot (KG6KF) UUCP: {hplabs, sun, ucbvax}!amdcad!uport!smegma!mdg AMATEUR PACKET RADIO: KG6KF @ KB6IRS "Look, he's mounting a tape!" "Quick, throw cold water on him!"