ghh@confidence.princeton.edu (Gilbert Harman) (07/16/88)
I am trying to get an up to date list of undergraduate
programs in cognitive science or cognitive studies.
--
Gilbert Harman
Princeton University Cognitive Science Laboratory
221 Nassau Street, Princeton, NJ 08542
ghh@princeton.edu
HARMAN@PUCC.BITNETtjhorton@ai.toronto.edu ("Timothy J. Horton") (07/17/88)
ghh@confidence.princeton.edu (Gilbert Harman) writes: >I am trying to get an up to date list of undergraduate >programs in cognitive science or cognitive studies. This is a summary of responses to a question posed in comp.ai a few months ago about (university) programs in cognitive science. The original question in- cluded the following (slightly fixed) information (and some misinformation): MIT: Department of Brain and Cognitive Science Brown: Department of Linguistics and Cognitive Science, 12 Faculty Fields of study: Linguistics, Vision, Reasoning, Neural Models, Animal Cognition UCSD: interdisciplinary PhD in Cognitive Science exists a Dept of Cognitive Science is in the works undergraduate program in Cog Sci currently offered by psychology emphases in Connectionism, Psychology, AI, Linguisitics, Neuroscience, Philosophy, Social Cognition Stanford: Graduate Program in Cognitive Science Psychology (organizing dept), Linguistics, Computer Science, Philosophy Rochester: interdisciplinary PhD in Cognitive Science UC Berkley: Cognitive Science Program, focus on linguistics Princeton: interdisciplinary program in Cognitive Science Toronto: Undergraduate Major in Cognitive Science and Artificial Intelligence Michigan: no current program in Cognitive Science, but some opportunities University of Western Ontario: Center for Cognitive Science Edinburgh: department of Cognitive Science (formerly School of Epistemics) focus on linguistics Sussex: School of Cognitive Science --------------------- RESPONSES (partially EDITED) --------------------------- From: "Donald A. Norman" <norman%ics@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu> at UCSD >At UCSD, we are indeed in the process of establishing a Department of Cognitive >Science. We are now hiring, but formal classes will not start until the Fall >of 1989. We will have both an undergraduate and a PhD program. We now have >an Interdisciplinary PhD program: students enter some department, X, and join >the interdisciplinary program after completing the first year requirements of >X. They then receive a "PhD in X and Cognitive Science." We have about 20 >students now and have given out about 3 PhDs. > The strengths are in the computational understanding of cognition, with >strong emphasis in psychology, AI, linguisitics, neuroscience, philosophy, and >social cognition. PDP (connectionism) is one of the strengths at UCSD, and >the approach permeates all of the different areas of Cognitive Science, even >among those of us who do not directly do work on weights, algorithms, or >connectionist architectures > Yes, there is a Cognitive Science Society. It hosts an annual conference >(the next one will be in Montreal). It publishes the journal "Cognitive >Science." You can find out about it by writing the secretary treasurer: > Kurt Vanlehn vanlehn@a.psy.cmu.edu > Department of Psychology > Carnegie-Mellon University > Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ----- From: Jeff Elman <elman@amos.ling.ucsd.edu> at UCSD (taken from comp.ai) >The University of California, San Diego is considering the establishment of a >Department of Cognitive Science ... The Department will take a broadly-based >approach to the study of cognition. It will be concerned with the neurological >basis of cognition, individual cognition, cognition in social groups, and >machine intelligence. It will incorporate methods and theories from a wide >variety of disciplines including Anthropology, Computer Science, Linguistics, >Neuroscience, Philosophy, Psychology, and Sociology. ----- From: Tom Olson <olson@cs.rochester.edu> at Rochester >The University of Rochester has an interdisciplinary Ph. D. in Cog Sci, >basically a bridge between Comp. Sci., Psych and Philosophy. I don't know >much about how it is organized. If you're interested, you might write to >alice@cs.rochester.edu or lachter@cs.rochester.edu who are among the first >students in the program. Presumably we're strong in linguistics, vision, >connectionism, and inexact ("probabilistic") reasoning. >PS Connectionism is not fading at San Diego as far as I know. ----- From: Michael McInerny <mcinerny@cs.rochester.edu> at Rochester >Here at the UofRochester (Hi Neighbor!), we have an "interdisciplinary" >Cog Sci dept. that includes fac. from Comp Sci, Psych, Philosophy, and >Neuroscience. I'm a grad student enrolled in the program, via the Comp >Science dept., which means I have to get my own committee together, >and build my own program, on top of passing regular CS stuff like Quals. >I understand there is an undergraduate major in the dept too. ----- From: William J. Rapaport <rapaport@cs.buffalo.edu> at SUNY >State University of New York at Buffalo has several active cognitive science >programs. What follows is a slightly outdated on-line information sheet on >two of them. [contact the author (or myself) for the full text. The description reads in part: "(the group's) activities have focused upon language-related issues and knowledge representation... "] >The newest is the SUNY Buffalo Graduate Studies and Research Initiative in >Cognitive and Linguistic Sciences, whose Steering Committee is currently >planning the establishment of a Cog and Ling Sci Center and running a >colloquium series. For more information, please contact me. In addition, >let me know if you wish to be on my on-line mailing list for colloquium >announcements. ----- From: Marie Bienkowski <bienk@spam.istc.sri.com> >Princeton University has an excellent Cognitive Science program, although >there is no department by that name. They have active research programs >on automated tutoring, vocabulary acquisition, reasoning, belief revision, >connectionism (with Bellcore), computational linguistics, cognitive >anthropology, and probably more that I've missed. The main sponsoring >departments are Psychology, Philosophy and Linguistics. > A good person to contact is bjr@mind.princeton.edu, who is, in real life, >a professor in the Psychology Dept. His p-mail address is: > Brian Reiser > Cognitive Science Laboratory > 21 Nassau St. > Princeton, NJ 08542 ----- From: Rodney Hoffman <Hoffman.es@xerox.com> >There is an undergraduate program in Cognitive Science at Occidental College >(Los Angeles). The director is Saul Traiger <oxy!traiger@CSVAX.Caltech.edu>; >write to him for more information. ----- From: "Saul P. Traiger" <oxy!traiger@csvax.caltech.edu> at Occidental College >The following appeared in Ailist Digest last summer. Let me know if you'd >like more information. > Occidental College, a liberal arts college which enrolls approximately >1600 students, is pleased to announce a new Program in Cognitive >Science. The Program offers an undergraduate major and minor in Cognitive >Science. Faculty participating in this program include members of the >departments of mathematics, linguistics, psychology, and philosophy. >[...] The undergraduate major in Cognitive Science at Occidental College >includes courses in mathematics, philosophy, psychology and linguistics. >Instruction in mathematics introduces students to computer languages, >discrete mathematics, logic, and the mathematics of computation. >Philosophy offerings cover the philosophy of mind, with emphasis on >computational models of the mind, the theory of knowledge, the philosophy >of science, and the philosophy of language. Psychology courses include >basic psychology, learning, perception, and cognition. Courses in >linguistics provide a theoretical foundation in natural languages, their >acquisition, development, and structure. For more information about >Occidental College's Cognitive Science Program: > Professor Saul Traiger ARPANET: oxy!traiger@CSVAX.Caltech.EDU > Cognitive Science Program BITNET: oxy!traiger@hamlet > 1600 Campus Road CSNET: oxy!traiger%csvax.caltech.edu@RELAY.CS.NET > Occidental College UUCP: {seismo,rutgers,ames}!cit-vax!oxy!traiger > Los Angeles, CA 90041 ----- From: Roy Eagleson <deepthot.UWO.CDN!elroy@julian.uucp> at Western Ontario >"The Centre for Cognitive Science" at UWO is a community of professors, >research assistants, and graduate students from: Psychology, Computer Science, >Philosophy, Neurobiology, Engineering, and Library Science. In addition to >the related graduate and undergraduate courses offered by those faculties >and departments, there is an undergraduate course in Cognitive Science >offered through Psychology. We can send you more info if you want it. > >As for the Cognitive Science Society, you can drop them a line at: > Cognitive Science Society, > Department of Psychology > Carnegie-Mellon University > Schenley Park > Pittsburgh, PA 15213 >Zenon Pylyshyn was their President for 1985-86. ----- From: John Laird <laird@caen.engin.umich.edu> at Michigan >There is no formal undergraduate or graduate program in Cognitive Science >at this time. We will be offering an undergraduate course in Cognitive Science >next term, co-taught by AI, Psych., Ling., and Philosophy. We also have the >Cognitive Science and Machine Intelligence Lab. It is supported by three >colleges: Engineering; Business; and Literature, Sciences and the Arts. >The Lab sponsers a variety of Cognitive Science activities: talks, workshops, >research groups, etc. I expect that in a few years we will have undergraduate >and graduate programs in Cognitive Science, but for now, students must be in >a specific department and take cross-listed courses. ----- >From Professor Tom Perry, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver >The Cognitive Science Program does not yet have a graduate program, but one is >planned for the near future. At present, qualified students can do advanced >degrees under Special Arrangements. [...] > Cognitive Science Program > Department of Philosophy > Simon Fraser University > Burnaby, BC, Canada V5A 1S6 [Special arrangements means: "Exceptionally able applications, who wish to work for a Master's or Doctoral degree outside or between existing programs at Simon Fraser University, may apply to work under Special Arrangements. (the student) must have a well-developed plan of studies in an area which can be shown to have internal coherence and academic merit, and which the University has appro- priate expertise and interests among its faculty members ..."] ----- >From Donald H. Mitchell of Bendix Aero. Tech. Ctr <DON@atc.bendix.com> >In 1985, the president of Northwestern University set aside a decent pot of >money and charged the Cognitive Psychology program to find a chairman for an >interdisciplinary Cognitive Science program. They aggressively set out and >brought dozens of big names in for show-and-tell. They made offers to >several; however, as far as I know, they never caught one. Maybe they have >one now? I do not know. >Northwestern has a small but high-quality group of Cognitive Psychologists >[...] The work is primarily on human cognition: verbal information processing >... human decision making... human expertise in game-playing, ... heuristic >search, and machine learning (genetic algorithms). -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ghh@thought.princeton.edu (Gilbert Harman) (07/19/88)
I have been preparing an up to date list of undergraduate
programs in cognitive science or cognitive studies. So far,
I have the following list. I would appreciate hearing of
any additions or corrections to this information.
Campuses with undergraduate degree programs:
Brown University (Department of Cognitive and Linguistic Sciences)
Carnegie Mellon University (Cognitive Science Program)
Hampshire College (Cognitive Science Program)
MIT (Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences)
Occidental College (Cognitive Science Program)
Simon Fraser University (Cognitive Science Program)
UCLA (Psychology and Cognitive Science)
University of Edinburgh (Department of Cognitive Science)
University of Pennsylvania (Computer Science and Cognitive Science)
University of Rochester (Cognitive Science Program)
University of Sussex (School of Cognitive Science)
University of Toronto (Major in Cognitive Science and Artificial Intelligence)
Uiversity of Western Ontario (Center for Cognitive Science)
Vassar College (Cognitive Science Program)
Wesleyan University (Cognitive Science Program)
Campuses with undergraduate minor tracks and independent majors:
Brandeis University
Columbia University
Dartmouth College
Gustavus Adolphus College
Harvard University
Northeastern University
Occidental College
Smith College
Stanford University
SUNY Binghamton
Tufts University
UC Berkeley
UC San Diego
University of Florida
University of Maryland
University of Massachusetts at Amherst
University of Oregon
Wellesley College
Almost all courses in these programs are not specifically
courses in "Cognitive Studies" or Cognitive Science" but are
instead courses in a particular department such as
Psychology or Computer Science. Almost always there is a
one semester (or occasionally a full year) introductory course
in Cognitive Studies. Often there are one or two advanced
seminars on "Topics in Cognitive Studies" where the content
of the seminar is expected to vary from year to year
depending on the interests of the instructor. Almost all
the courses in any of these programs are courses in
particular established departments. Occasionally, some of
these courses in other departments are also given a
Cognitive Studies designation in the school catalog.
The main exceptions seem to be MIT, where there is no
Department of Psychology but instead a Department of Brain
and Cognitive Science, and the UC, San Diego, where an
ambitious array of courses in Cognitive Science has been
proposed for their new Department of Cognitive Science.
--
Gilbert Harman
Princeton University Cognitive Science Laboratory
221 Nassau Street, Princeton, NJ 08542
ghh@princeton.edu
HARMAN@PUCC.BITNETjbn@glacier.STANFORD.EDU (John B. Nagle) (07/19/88)
One wonders what all these cognitive science graduates are going to do after graduation. John Nagle
hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (07/21/88)
In article <17570@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> jbn@glacier.UUCP (John B. Nagle) writes: } One wonders what all these cognitive science graduates are going to }do after graduation. Earn six figure salaries in the expert systems and AI fields. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Illegitimati Nil Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
tom@csustan.UUCP (Tom Carter) (07/22/88)
In article <17570@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> jbn@glacier.UUCP (John B. Nagle) writes: > > One wonders what all these cognitive science graduates are going to >do after graduation. > > John Nagle Hmmm -- Maybe more or less the same things that all those History and English and Sociology and Physics and Anthropology and . . . Let's see. After I graduated with my BA in Philosophy, I got a job as an 'administrative assistant (accounting)' in a bank, and was told within a year that I was "the most effective and productive person in the division." They seemed to like my problem solving skills, my ability to deal well with people, my ability to communicate . . . (Of course, now that I think about it, my boss at the job I left to go to the bank told me I was "the best damn dish-washer" he'd ever had, so maybe it was just me, and had nothing to do with the BA in Philosophy. :-) In the same serious vein, though, I've always suffered under the delusion that a good "liberal education" helped one get on with life, rather than just serving as a ticket into an entry level position in some 'career path' . . . Tom Carter csustan!tom@lll-crg.llnl.gov
norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman) (07/23/88)
> One wonders what all these cognitive science graduates are going to >do after graduation. > > John Nagle As the proud chair of the newly formed Department of Cognitive Science at UCSD, John's cleverness deserves some response. We expect our graduates to be in heavy demand -- just as our current undergraduates with degrees in "Psychology & Cognitive Science" and our present PhDs with degrees in "X and Cognitive Science" have been. X is any one of linguistics, computer science, psychology, anthropology, sociology, philosophy, or neuroscience. Eventually, as cognitive science departments proliferate, there will be academic jobs in these departments. For the moment, the graduates are welcomed by departments in all of the X fields listed above, for these people have the traditional skills plus a wider, richer perspective on the problems of studying human, animal, and/or artificial cognition. Industry already seeks these people: we have a thick collection of job announcements from industry explicitly asking for people trained in cognitive science. No, not just expert systems stuff, but human-machine interaction, design in general, training systems, CSCW (Computer support of Cooperative Work) projects -- at places like BBN, HP, Tektronix, IBM, Xerox, Apple, DEC, ATT, Bellcore, NASA, small software houses, large research labs, military research labs, industrial labs, ... It is my belief that well trained good people will always find opportunitiess, regardless of the formal title of their training. ====================================================================== And now for the advertisement. Here is a short description of what is happening at UCSD. UCSD has established a Department of Cognitive Science, effective July 1, 1988. It will offer both an undergraduate degree and a PhD in cognitive science. Students will not be accepted until the 1989/90 academic year: The 1988/80 academic year will be spent in developing the graduate and undergraduate curriculum and in submitting these to the appropriate university and state bodies for formal approval to offer degrees. The initial faculty are: Elizabeth Bates Aaron Cicourel Jeff Elman Gilles Fauconnier David Kirsh Jean Mandler Donald Norman (chair) Martin Sereno In addition, the steering committee voted to offer appointments to the following four people: their appointment files are now being evaluated by the appropriate university academic and administrative committees: Edwin Hutchins Marta Kutas Helen Neville David Zipser Recruiting of new faculty is expected to continue at a slow, but steady pace for the next several years. The department will cover all aspects of cognition, with a special emphasis on computational models, especially following the PDP tradition. The department feels strongly that cognition must be studied at all levels, including the biological basis, behavior, and social interactions and structure, with both emperical observations and theory. Don Norman Donald A. Norman Department of Cognitive Science C-015 University of California, San Diego La Jolla, California 92093 INTERNET: danorman@ucsd.edu INTERNET: norman@ics.ucsd.edu BITNET: danorman@ucsd.bitnet ARPA: norman@nprdc.arpa UNIX:{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!ics!norman
aarons@cvaxa.sussex.ac.uk (Aaron Sloman) (07/25/88)
From Aaron Sloman Sun Jul 24 21:41:56 BST 1988 To: ghh@princeton.edu Subject: Cognitive Sciences Programmes Just saw your message >Subject: programs in cognitive science >Message-ID: <GHH.88Jul16135559@confidence.princeton.edu> >Date: 16 Jul 88 04:55:59 GMT >I am trying to get an up to date list of undergraduate >programs in cognitive science or cognitive studies. At Sussex University we started, in 1973, a Programme that included both undergraduate and graduate studies in Cognitive Studies, including Psychology, Linguistics, Philosophy, Social Anthropology and AI. Originally this was based as a sub-school in the School of Social Sciences, but in 1987 it was deemed big enough to be a separate school, and from August 1988 will be joined by Computer Science, leading to a new name: School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences Undergraduate majors now include Psychology (various versions) Linguistics Computational Linguistics Philosophy Computing and AI (includes some of all the other disciplines) Computer Science Economics and Computing There are also the following graduate courses: MA MSc conversion course in Knowledge Based Systems MPhil DPhil The school is one of the few things still growing in UK Universities. I hope this information is of some use. Aaron Sloman, School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences, Univ of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9QN, England ARPANET : aarons%uk.ac.sussex.cvaxa@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk JANET aarons@cvaxa.sussex.ac.uk BITNET: aarons%uk.ac.sussex.cvaxa@uk.ac As a last resort (it costs us more...) UUCP: ...mcvax!ukc!cvaxa!aarons or aarons@cvaxa.uucp Phone: University +(44)-(0)273-678294
bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) (07/25/88)
In article <580@sdics.ucsd.EDU> norman@sdics.UUCP (Donald A. Norman) writes: >> One wonders what all these cognitive science graduates are going to >>do after graduation. >> >> John Nagle > >As the proud chair of the newly formed Department of Cognitive Science >at UCSD, John's cleverness deserves some response. Now let me get this straight; "John's cleverness" is the "proud chair" of UCSD's new Cog. department? Donald, where-oh-where can I get an application form for a job at UCSD? If they're giving the things to personality traits, then a human should be a shoo-in. --Blair "...and I once had a gig in the U.S. army as a conscientious objectionism."
pete@wor-mein.UUCP (Pete Turner) (07/25/88)
In article <580@sdics.ucsd.EDU> norman@sdics.UUCP (Donald A. Norman) writes: >UCSD has established a Department of Cognitive Science, effective July >1, 1988. It will offer both an undergraduate degree and a PhD in >cognitive science. Is anyone planning to offer a Masters program in Cognitive Science? Pete
wex@banzai-inst.SW.MCC.COM (Alan Wexelblat) (07/25/88)
In article <580@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman) writes: > The 1988/80 academic year will be spent in developing the graduate and > undergraduate curriculum and in submitting these to the appropriate > university and state bodies for formal approval to offer degrees. This leads me to ask if there is any easy way (perhaps on-line?) to get copies of the graduate and undergraduate curricula used by the various programs in cognitive science. Of course, you can write and get course catalogs from admissions offices, but these catalogs are often not very descriptive. Are there any comparative works (books, magazine articles) highlighting differences and advantages/disadvantages of different programs of cog-eng education?
norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman) (07/26/88)
In article <580@sdics.ucsd.EDU> I wrote: > >As the proud chair of the newly formed Department of Cognitive Science >at UCSD, John's cleverness deserves some response. Once upon a time I was also proud of my writing skills. Obviously those skills have deteriorated to the point where my sentences can now be used as examples in the "crappy examples" side of writing manuals. My apologies. don norman
norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman) (07/26/88)
Two questions have been asked:
1. Can anyone see sample curricula?
2. Is anyone planning to offer a Masters program in Cognitive Science?
1. Ken Livingston at Vassar College is putting together information
about Cognitive Science programs, including some information on
curriculum. There is also an old document produced at Rochester a
number of years ago that gives sample curriculula (but I don't know
how to get it and it is probably quite out of date by now).
One problem is that all these programs are relatively new and the
faculty are still experimenting with ideas. Our sample curriculum,
for example, is only that -- a sample generated to help the
administration understand what we might do. Now that we have a
department, the sample will indeed be our guide, but it is likely to
be revised substantially in the coming year because the faculty we
have hired is not the same as the faculty that constructed the sample.
So, to see an accurate picture of what we are going to do, you have to
wait 6 months. Painful, but what can I say?
2. Masters degrees. All programs should speak for themselves, but I
predict that this is unlikely. Most universities are set up for full
time students with either undergraduate aims or PhD aims. The masters
degree is usually offered on the way to a PhD as an aid to students
who prefer it, or who might have to drop out along the way. Most
departments will probably not accept students who only wish a masters
degree (I predict).
This is a common philosophy in science departments. Part of our
argument is that the major function of graduate training in the
sciences is independent research, not courses. hence, the PhD is more
appropriate. If, however, there is really significant demand (a
steady strem of 20 +/- qualified applicants per school per year)
things are apt to change.
Note that Engineering departments usually have a different
philosophy, and they often have very good masters programs.
don norman
Donald A. Norman
Department of Cognitive Science C-015
University of California, San Diego
La Jolla, California 92093
INTERNET: danorman@ucsd.edu INTERNET: norman@ics.ucsd.edu
BITNET: danorman@ucsd.bitnet UNIX:{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!ics!normanmmh@ivax.doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (07/26/88)
>In article <17570@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> jbn@glacier.UUCP (John B. Nagle) writes: >} One wonders what all these cognitive science graduates are going to >}do after graduation. Isn't it a way of doing computing without everyone thinking you must be a nerd?
csf@mtunb.ATT.COM ( ) (08/03/88)
> >In article <580@sdics.ucsd.EDU> D. Norman writes : > >As the proud chair of the newly formed Department of Cognitive Science ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >at UCSD, John's cleverness deserves some response. Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? (Sciences, that is.) To wit: Political Science Materials Science Computer Science Food Science ... Will Cognitive Science be the exception? C. Furchner -- C. Furchner ...ihnp4!mtune!mtunb!csf
norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman - danorman@ucsd.edu (or .bitnet)) (08/03/88)
>As the proud chair of the newly formed Department of Cognitive Science
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<<Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't?
<<(Sciences,
Ever get tired of hearing this old chestnut? I do. Especially as:
1. It isn't true.
Those who like the statement cite whatever field they think most
poorly of, ignoring the earth sciences, the space sciences, etc. In
addition, their definition of science is highly idiosyncratic and
suspect. The National Academy of Sciences, for example, has no
problem with fields with the word "science" (or "-ology) in their
name)
2. The statement simply reveals the person's ignorance of language:
the "ology" of the names of many disciplines means "science. of"
How about coming up with a new witticism? All that talent should
certainly be able to come up with something better.
Don Norman
Department of Cognitive Science C-015
University of California, San Diego
La Jolla, California 92093
INTERNET: danorman@ucsd.edu INTERNET: norman@ics.ucsd.edu
BITNET: danorman@ucsd.bitnet UNIX:{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!ics!norman
(If you reply directly to me, please include your postal
mail address and all possible e-mail addresses. I often
can't answer people because their mail paths fail.)andy@cayuga.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) (08/03/88)
In article <1268@mtunb.ATT.COM> csf@mtunb.UUCP ( ) writes: >Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? >(Sciences, that is.) To wit: >Will Cognitive Science be the exception? Materials Science is THE exception. :-)/2 -andy UUCP: {arpa gateways, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!polya.stanford.edu!andy ARPA: andy@polya.stanford.edu (415) 329-1718/723-3088 home/cubicle
colin@pdn.UUCP (Colin Kendall) (08/03/88)
In article <595@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman - danorman@ucsd.edu (or .bitnet)) writes: > [somebody else writes] > <<Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? > <<(Sciences, > > Ever get tired of hearing this old chestnut? I do. Especially as: > 1. It isn't true. > Those who like the statement cite whatever field they think most > poorly of, ignoring the earth sciences, the space sciences, etc. Not necessarily. I like the statement, and I cite Computer Science. Not only do I not think poorly of Computer Science, I majored in it and am pursuing a career in it. But it's not science. > In > addition, their definition of science is highly idiosyncratic and > suspect. When I use the statement, I mean by science "systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied". What's idiosyncratic or suspect about that? That is not the only meaning of science, of course, but it's the one the statement means. > The National Academy of Sciences, for example, has no > problem with fields with the word "science" (or "-ology) in their > name) Is it the official position of the NAS that Library Science and Political Science are *sciences*? If so, I'd like to see that documented. > 2. The statement simply reveals the person's ignorance of language: > the "ology" of the names of many disciplines means "science. of" No ignorance here. It's actually the "logy" of many names. And it's actually the "science, theory, or discipline of", where "theory" may be completely unscientific, as in "astrology". Would you please provide some argument for your assertion that the statement is not true, instead of attacking those who agree with it? > -- Colin Kendall Paradyne Corporation {uunet,peora}!pdn!colin Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-8697 8550 Ulmerton Road, PO Box 2826 Largo, FL 33294-2826
reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) (08/03/88)
In article <3939@pdn.UUCP> colin@pdn.UUCP (Colin Kendall) writes: >In article <595@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman - danorman@ucsd.edu (or .bitnet)) writes: >> [somebody else writes] >> <<Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? >> <<(Sciences, >> Ever get tired of hearing this old chestnut? I do. Especially as: >> 1. It isn't true. >> Those who like the statement cite whatever field they think most >> poorly of, ignoring the earth sciences, the space sciences, etc. >Not necessarily. I like the statement, and I cite Computer Science. Not >only do I not think poorly of Computer Science, I majored in it and am >pursuing a career in it. But it's not science. The career most of us pursue is not science. But this does not indicate that the discipline studied at a university is also not a science. Most who graduate with a degree in CS go into developing software. That is closer to engineering than science. >> In >> addition, their definition of science is highly idiosyncratic and >> suspect. >When I use the statement, I mean by science "systematized knowledge >derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in >order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied". >What's idiosyncratic or suspect about that? That is not the only >meaning of science, of course, but it's the one the statement means. Colin, we must have the same dictionary! How can you state that the definition you gave is THE one meant in that statement? Perhaps to it is, but not to everyone. Lets examine the other definitions of the term science: (1) the state or fact of knowing; knowledge, (3) a branch of knowledge or study, esp. one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods, as by experiments and hypotheses, (4) a) the systematized knowledge of nature and the physical world b) any branch of this See NAURAL SCIENCE, (5) skill or technique based upon systematized training. >the statement is not true, instead of attacking those who agree >with it? It is simply that you choose to accept one definition of science as the one you use for the label. Chemistry does not just concern itself with nature, but also with synthetic creations of man using the basic components of nature. Are not computers also such creations? (Molecular computing anyone?) Besides to get back on the subject at hand, cognitive science and many of the other "soft" sciences do involve the narrow definition that you wish to associate with the term. -- George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation ..!uunet!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 NOTE: codas<--->pdn will be gone soon Largo, FL 34649-2826
sacks@classroom.ci.com (Marc Sacks) (08/03/88)
In article <595@sdics.ucsd.EDU> norman@sdics.UUCP (Donald A. Norman - danorman@ucsd.edu (or .bitnet)) writes: > ><<Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? ><<(Sciences, > >Ever get tired of hearing this old chestnut? I do. Especially as: > name) >2. The statement simply reveals the person's ignorance of language: >the "ology" of the names of many disciplines means "science. of" > Not exactly. "[o]logy derives from Greek "logos"="word." That is, for example, "biology," though generally translated "science of life" is more accurately "words about life." No shortage of words in any of the "sciences" or "ologies," real or pseudo --marc sacks
colin@pdn.UUCP (Colin Kendall) (08/04/88)
In article <3940@pdn.UUCP>, reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) writes: > In article <3939@pdn.UUCP> colin@pdn.UUCP (Colin Kendall) writes: > >In article <595@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman - danorman@ucsd.edu (or .bitnet)) writes: > >> [somebody else writes] > >> <<Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? > >> <<(Sciences, > > >When I use the statement, I mean by science "systematized knowledge > >derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in > >order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied". > >What's idiosyncratic or suspect about that? That is not the only > >meaning of science, of course, but it's the one the statement means. > > Colin, we must have the same dictionary! How can you state that > the definition you gave is THE one meant in that statement? Perhaps to > it is, but not to everyone. Read my lips: "When *I* use the statement, *I* mean..." It is possible that other people mean different things by "science" in the given statement; read on. > Lets examine the other definitions of the > term science: (1) the state or fact of knowing; knowledge, (3) a branch > of knowledge or study, ... > > It is simply that you choose to accept one definition of science > as the one you use for the label. Label? What label? A "discipline" is also a branch of knowledge or study. It is conceivable that the original framer of the statement, and others who cite it, meant to imply this sense of science, resulting in: "Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't disciplines?" But I doubt it. If I say "I like his drawings, but they are not art", I obviously mean art in the sense of beautiful things, not that the drawings are not the product of human endeavor. If I say "My baby is not a person yet", I obviously mean that my baby has not yet developed a personality, and not that the baby is not a human being. Similarly, when I say "Computer Science is not a science", I (apparently not obviously) mean that Computer Science is not a discipline that delves into the nature of computers using experiments to prove or disprove hypotheses; I do not mean that Computer Science is not a branch of knowledge or study. Get it? > Chemistry does not just concern itself > with nature, but also with synthetic creations of man using the basic > components of nature. Here you are using two senses of "chemistry" at once. Chemistry is, in one sense, the science of the composition and properties of matter, and, in another sense, the application of this science in building synthetic creations. I submit that when a chemist synthesizes something, he is acting as an engineer rather than as a scientist. > > Besides to get back on the subject at hand, cognitive science and > many of the other "soft" sciences do involve the narrow definition that > you wish to associate with the term. Well, I don't know what cognitive science is. I just thought the statement was apt with regard to the examples given by the original poster, like Food Science and Political Science, to which I add Computer Science and Library Science. I would be interested in a list of scientific disciplines with "Science" in their names. -- Colin Kendall Paradyne Corporation {uunet,peora}!pdn!colin Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-8697 8550 Ulmerton Road, PO Box 2826 Largo, FL 33294-2826
ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (08/05/88)
In article <3958@pdn.UUCP> colin@pdn.UUCP (Colin Kendall) writes: >In article <3940@pdn.UUCP>, reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) writes: >> In article <3939@pdn.UUCP> colin@pdn.UUCP (Colin Kendall) writes: >> >In article <595@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, norman@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Donald A. Norman - danorman@ucsd.edu (or .bitnet)) writes: >> >> [somebody else writes] >> >> <<Ever notice how disciplines that have "science" in their names aren't? >> >> <<(Sciences, And it goes on from there. What does this debate tell us about the nature of Cognitive Science, or Computer Science, or whatever? Very little. Everyone claims the power of Humpty-Dumpty. I have never seen an explicit definition of "science" which would let Mathematics, Statistics, Operations Research, &c in, because they are not experimental studies of material entities. Does anyone want to argue that they are therefore not quite as respectable as physics? Computer Science: if we spell it "Informatics" where's the problem? Cognitive Science: but Cognitive Science, as opposed to AI, _does_ appeal to experimental data, or at least the work done at Edinburgh under that label did when I was there. It is arguable that Jurisprudence _is_ an experimental science (it attempts to induce principles from the observed outcomes of trials, and may involve test cases), and is on safer grounds than disciplines relying on surveys. Do any of these names actually mislead anyone?