shorne@citron (Scott Horne) (08/19/88)
From article <1043@mmm.UUCP>, by cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard):
<
< I've just been reading the book, "Cultural Literacy," by E. D. Hirsch, Jr.
< It's great. Anyone who has anything to do with education in the United
< States (this includes having children in school) should read this book.
<
< The author explains with great clarity and plain simple logic exactly
< what's wrong with the U.S. public education system, why spending vast
< amounts of money hasn't helped, and what will help.
<
< The author uses results from many scientific studies of cognition and
< memory to illustrate his points. Nobody in the education biz seems to
< be paying much attention to these studies and their plain implications.
<
< This is a voice that deserves to be heard. We have to DO SOMETHING
< about the state of education in this country (if it's not already too
< late) and Dr. Hirsch seems to have the right idea about what we need to
< do.
Instead of reading _Cultural Literacy_, read Allan Bloom's _The Closing of
the American Mind_. Every American (including schoolchildren--ESPECIALLY
schoolchildren) should read it!!
Hirsch seems to say that "cultural literacy" can be achieved by memorizing a
bunch of information from an encyclopedia. _Au contraire_! What we need is
a truly *liberal* education.
Unfortunately, as my USENET access runs out tomorrow, I won't be able to
continue this interesting discussion. BTW, if anyone knows of any cheap
public-access UNIX systems with USENET & mail access--and can be reached by
`telnet'--, please let me know (send SnailMail; see below).
--Scott Horne
uucp: ....!gatech!hubcap!scarlett!{hazel,citron,amber}!shorne
(If that doesn't work, change "scarlett" to "scarle")
(If *that* doesn't work, send to cchang@hubcap.clemson.edu)
(If *that* doesn't work, wait until January & write me at Yale)
SnailMail: Scott Horne, 812 Eleanor Dr., Florence, SC 29501
VoiceNet: 803 667-9848 (home); 803 669-1912 (office)clark@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Clark Quinn) (08/20/88)
In article <2776@hubcap.UUCP> shorne@citron (Scott Horne) writes: >From article <1043@mmm.UUCP>, by cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard): >< >< I've just been reading the book, "Cultural Literacy," by E. D. Hirsch, Jr. >< It's great. Anyone who has anything to do with education in the United >< States (this includes having children in school) should read this book. >< > >Instead of reading _Cultural Literacy_, read Allan Bloom's _The Closing of >the American Mind_. Every American (including schoolchildren--ESPECIALLY >schoolchildren) should read it!! > I actually find both these books have interesting and valid points to make.* I also feel that they address only parts of the problem. Hirsch is right, we do need to have a common cultural background to use as reference for communication. But we need more. I believe Bloom, taking a broader view, is also right that we need to return to a set of cultural values, rationally examined, which include the importance of education. I feel we need even more. For one thing, both neglect cognitive skills. Just having a breadth of knowledge doesn't insure that you can effectively use it for problem-solving, argument analysis, or any of the other practical applications required of the intellectual mind. Hirsch's solution, also neglects many of the societal factors that affect the quality of education in this country. In the same special edition about educational issues where I read Hirsch, they pointed out problems with parents attitudes toward education, parents attitudes towards teachers, economic pressures on all involved parties, racial pressures, and more. Bloom takes a broader view, but his viewpoint is also simplistic in that his solution to support a liberal arts education doesn't address pre-existing problems (although I admit I haven't finished the book, he may go on and remedy that). I also am not sure that I will agree with his rationale for the process of value selection. Anyway, I'm glad to see this discussion, we're talking about points very close to my heart. I am writing up a dissertation that studies the effects of training on general cognitive skills. The results seem to indicate that a) even college students have some deficits in cognitive skills, and b) that training can have an effect. BTW, I do *not* recommend that schoolchildren read Bloom, not because I think that his points aren't important, but his writing style is so dense that it might put off the average reader, even if they could read it without a dictionary by their side. While you might argue that it is a good exercise, I would rather they get the exercise following up on Plato, etc after reading an accessible version of Bloom, for inspiration. -- Clark Clark N. Quinn Institute for Cognitive Science C-015 University of California, San Diego La Jolla, California 92093-0115 (619) 534-5996 (UCSD): (619) 457-1274 (Home) INTERNET: clark@ics.ucsd.edu INTERNET: cnquinn@ucsd.edu BITNET: cnquinn@ucsd.bitnet ARPA: clark@nprdc.arpa UNIX: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!ucsd!ics!clark *NB: As I indicated above, I haven't read Hirsch's book, I have read a rebuttal by him to criticisms of the book where he reiterates the argument. I am in the process of reading Bloom. However, I believe I *have* gotten the essence of their positions.
alderson@Jessica.stanford.edu (Rich Alderson) (08/20/88)
Mr. Horne seems to have skipped Dr. Hirsch's discussion of HOW the proposed encyclopaedia ought to be used. Hirsch even notes that the typical educator will think that merely memorizing the list, and testing that memorization, would be the proper use. Both books are vital. As to saving the U. S. educational system, I suspect that we are about 25 years too late. Period. I've directed followup to comp.edu. Rich Alderson I refuse to disclaim my opinions on my employer's behalf. If they don't like them, let them say so themselves.
ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (08/20/88)
[I've directed followups to comp.edu, as "Cultural Literacy" is about education, after all.] In article <2776@hubcap.UUCP> shorne@citron (Scott Horne) writes: >Hirsch seems to say that "cultural literacy" can be achieved by memorizing a >bunch of information from an encyclopedia. _Au contraire_! What we need is >a truly *liberal* education. This is a fairly serious misreading. Hirsch's thesis is (a) reading is important to education (even, one presumes, a "truly liberal education", whatever that might be) (b) there is more to reading than just being about to decode marks on paper (c) in particular, you have to have a certain amount of background knowledge of your own culture in order to be able to read effectively (d) and the book offers a particular list of topics as an instance of what a minimal background might look like. That is, "Cultural Literacy" does not claim that to know that list of facts is to be educated, but that you need to understand most of those topics at some level in order to be able to read and comprehend a newspaper. (For example, as an alien in the USA, I am still stumped when I see the term "carpetbagger", and get nothing from it. Someone who has been taught about the Reconstruction should understand the metaphor.) "Cultural Literacy" might also be useful to writers: if you use a metaphor not on the list, you had better check that your intended audience is likely to understand it.
shorne@citron (Scott Horne) (08/25/88)
From article <620@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, by clark@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Clark Quinn): > In article <2776@hubcap.UUCP> shorne@citron (Scott Horne) writes: >>From article <1043@mmm.UUCP>, by cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard): <<< <<< I've just been reading the book, "Cultural Literacy," by E. D. Hirsch, Jr. <<< It's great. Anyone who has anything to do with education in the United <<< States (this includes having children in school) should read this book. << <<Instead of reading _Cultural Literacy_, read Allan Bloom's _The Closing of <<the American Mind_. Every American (including schoolchildren--ESPECIALLY <<schoolchildren) should read it!! << < < I actually find both these books have interesting and valid points to < make.* I also feel that they address only parts of the problem. < Hirsch is right, we do need to have a common cultural background to use < as reference for communication. Yes, we do (as you suggested below, how many people understand Bloom's references to Plato, Rousseau, _Alle Menschen werden Br"uder_, &c.?). < But we need more. I believe Bloom, < taking a broader view, is also right that we need to return to a set of < cultural values, rationally examined, which include the importance of < education. I feel we need even more. For one thing, both neglect < cognitive skills. Just having a breadth of knowledge doesn't insure < that you can effectively use it for problem-solving, argument analysis, < or any of the other practical applications required of the intellectual < mind. I, a potential Math or CS major (then again, I'm considering 8 other fields and tons of double majors), would be interested in a scientist's views on contemporary American education. Norm Matloff and I have been discussing American math education in soc.culture.china (yes, it does have to do with Chinese culture). He stated that Chinese and other Asian students generally follow what in Chinese is called the "tian yazi de xuefa" (translation: `the stuff-the-duck method of learning'); I disagreed, saying that the same occurs in the US. Among the examples I cited is the fact that many graduate students in Math at a certain Southern university couldn't solve a very simple problem involving merely knowledge of the circumference of a circle with respect to the radius! (For the problem, see soc.culture.china.) Sure, any grad student in Math could snap off "C == 2*pi*r" from memory, but how many at this univ. could apply that to a very simple situation? In short, I agree with you about cognitive skills. < Anyway, I'm glad to see this discussion, we're talking about points < very close to my heart. I am writing up a dissertation that studies < the effects of training on general cognitive skills. The results seem < to indicate that < a) even college students have some deficits in cognitive skills, and < b) that training can have an effect. Interesting! I've long known (a) and suspected (b). When will this dissertation come out? I'd like to read it. < BTW, I do *not* recommend that schoolchildren read Bloom, not because I < think that his points aren't important, but his writing style is so < dense that it might put off the average reader, even if they could read < it without a dictionary by their side. While you might argue that it < is a good exercise, I would rather they get the exercise following up < on Plato, etc after reading an accessible version of Bloom, for < inspiration. I agree that children (hell, even most adults!) would have trouble reading it. However, I maintain that they should read it for several reasons: 1) It's certainly an informative work. 2) It may expose to them some of the problems of their schools. 3) It encourages reading--a habit which has all but died in children today. 4) It may motivate them to read Plato, Rousseau, et. al.; to listen to classical music & realize the impact of rock music on them;.... 5) It may bring them to pursue liberal studies. 6) It may bring them to raise these and other issues with teachers and school officials. (No, this is not farfetched or unlikely.) 7) It encourages *thought* and discourages categorical belief of everything they hear. < *NB: As I indicated above, I haven't read Hirsch's book, I have read < a rebuttal by him to criticisms of the book where he reiterates the < argument. I am in the process of reading Bloom. However, I believe I < *have* gotten the essence of their positions. I've read only a little of Hirsch; I'm going to buy a copy and finish it. I, too, feel that I've "gotten the essence of their positions." Hirsch's encyclopedia lists some of the famous composers but not others. Why is this? Oversight? Or is Hirsch trying to bias the encyclopedia (and thus bias the reader) by excluding composers whose music doesn't appeal to Hirsch? Perhaps Hirsch doesn't know much about music but is just throwing out a few names from memory or from the sets of "100 Masterpieces of Music" and such that are advertised on TV? --Scott Horne uucp: ....!gatech!hubcap!scarlett!{hazel,citron,amber}!shorne (If that doesn't work, change "scarlett" to "scarle") (If *that* doesn't work, send to cchang@hubcap.clemson.edu) (If *that* doesn't work, wait until January & write me at Yale) SnailMail: Scott Horne, 812 Eleanor Dr., Florence, SC 29501 VoiceNet: 803 667-9848 (home); 803 669-1912 (office)
steve@oakhill.UUCP (steve) (08/31/88)
I have not been following the discussion too closely, so I might
be making points which already have been made, or which are
irrelevent.
First is to mention a review of tCotAM that I have seen. The
reviewer did a review of tCotAM as a book by Saul Bellow. He
first pointed out that the introduction was by Bellow. He then
said that This was a great joke Bellow was putting on us, that
Mr. Bloom was exactly the type of pompous ass Bellow would create.
Mr. Bloom was not amused.
If there is a need to prove that a broad base education is necessary
all one has to do is look at the computer science profession. How
many computer science majors actually work in their field. Yes they
program computers, but they apply it to anything but computers.
I am one of the lucky few who does pure computer science work, and
that is in a company I started on the side. Otherwise I have worked
in Sonar physics, writing gate-array design software, etc. Most computer
programming exists in the business fields. In otherwords, being
a computer scientist doesn't mean you need to know less, it means
you need to know more, so that you can apply your training to
someone else's problem.
enough from this mooncalf - Steven
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These opinions aren't necessarily Motorola's or Remora's - but I'd like to
think we share some common views.
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Steven R Weintraub cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!devsys!steve
Motorola Inc.
6501 William Cannon Dr. West, Mail OE29
Austin, Texas 78762
(512) 440-3023 (office)
(512) 453-6953 (home)
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