flee@guardian.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) (07/21/90)
I think the noun-verb/verb-noun distinction that David Seah tries to describe isn't syntactic, but more like the difference between a drill press and a hand drill. You take your object to a drill press, but you apply the hand drill to your object. It's the difference between a tool and an appliance, between a knife and a food processor. The MacPaint-style interface has both tools and appliances; you select a pencil tool and draw lines, but you select part of the drawing and duplicate it. People certainly seem to have no problems using both tools and appliances in real life. The distinction is a little hazy, but tools are used when building or crafting, while appliances are used when doing, accomplishing things. This is the difference between, say, Unix and VMS. Unix is a rack of tools, while VMS is a room full of appliances. Many people who just want to get things done are happier with full-feature appliances. In contrast, the hacker mentality is one that thrives on tools; hackers will build a doorbell if they need one and don't see one handy. -- Felix Lee flee@cs.psu.edu
sthomas@library.adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas) (07/23/90)
In article <F7s.2f21@cs.psu.edu> flee@guardian.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes: >I think the noun-verb/verb-noun distinction that David Seah tries to >describe isn't syntactic, but more like the difference between a drill >press and a hand drill. You take your object to a drill press, but >you apply the hand drill to your object. It's the difference between >a tool and an appliance, between a knife and a food processor. i.e. its a question of horses for courses. There's also a skill element here: to continue your analogy, a chef would always use a knife in preference to a food processor, because s/he likes the greater control offered by the knife. A novice cook on the other hand might prefer the food processor to losing a finger! > >The MacPaint-style interface has both tools and appliances; you select >a pencil tool and draw lines, but you select part of the drawing and >duplicate it. This is maybe a different issue to the noun-verb/verb-noun distinction - I'm not sure. But it is clear to me that in many cases you have to specify the noun/object before you can specify the verb/action, whereas you specify the verb/_tool_ before the noun/object (i.e. distinction is between action and tool). This at least must be true if the tool is going to create the object, since the object does not exist yet! >People certainly seem to have no problems using both tools and >appliances in real life. >Many people who just >want to get things done are happier with full-feature appliances. In >contrast, the hacker mentality is one that thrives on tools; Like I said: novice versus expert. The failing of the Mac OS here is that it did not cater for both. The provision of an optional command interface would not have been difficult, and would have stifled all those critics from the DOS world. Aside: an example from the Mac Finder of interest in this debate: the Open option from the File menu is only available once you have selected a file or folder. Why? If the user could choose Open first, then go thru a standard file open dialog to get the file, s/he would not have to go thru the tedious business of opening folders all over the desktop. I know some people who hate this, so why not, Apple? -- /* Steve Thomas, Senior Systems Analyst Mail : Barr Smith Library, University of Adelaide, GPO Box 498, Adelaide, SOUTH AUSTRALIA 5001
mpe@ohdake.uta.fi (Matti Pettersson) (07/23/90)
In article <F7s.2f21@cs.psu.edu> flee@guardian.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes: >I think the noun-verb/verb-noun distinction that David Seah tries to >describe isn't syntactic, but more like the difference between a drill >press and a hand drill. You take your object to a drill press, but >you apply the hand drill to your object. It's the difference between >a tool and an appliance, between a knife and a food processor. Two points: (1) There are two ways of seeing (analogies) the human-computer interface. One way is to see it as a language medium and the other as a world to act (see f.g. Hutchins et.al., Direct Manipulation Interfaces, in Norman and Draper (eds.) User Centered System Design). (2) When editing a text for example, you are scanning through the text on the screen. Now when you come across a typing error, it is quite natural to select the object first and then look after a suitable tool instead of searching for a tool, returning to the text and locating the typing error once again. --- Matti Pettersson, mpe@cs.uta.fi
noren@dinl.uucp (Charles Noren) (07/24/90)
In article <F7s.2f21@cs.psu.edu> flee@guardian.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes: >This is the difference between, say, Unix and VMS. Unix is a rack of >tools, while VMS is a room full of appliances. Many people who just >want to get things done are happier with full-feature appliances. In >contrast, the hacker mentality is one that thrives on tools; hackers >will build a doorbell if they need one and don't see one handy. I've used both UNIX and VMS. I see a different philosophy between the two operating systems, but rack of tools vs. full-feature appliances is one I fail to see. Would you call yacc in UNIX a tool, given its power? Maybe if the thought is expanded upon with examples the point would become clearer to me. In any case (not to debate the merits of one OS over another), I want an OS that has both tools and appliances. I'd hate to be stuck with having to use a refrigerator to pound a nail into a wall to hang a picture. Conversly, I don't want just saws and hammers when I want to keep my food cold. -- Chuck Noren NET: ncar!dinl!noren US-MAIL: Martin Marietta I&CS, MS XL8058, P.O. Box 1260, Denver, CO 80201-1260 Phone: (303) 971-7930