wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) (12/12/86)
Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks if I want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) I have learned to politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always works, whether ordered or not. Before the breakup of the Bell System I once received a polite letter from their San Francisco office, asking me to request Touchtone. They had noticed that I was using it. I ignored the letter, and never heard from them again. Has anyone else made this observation? To be fair, the extra charge should apply to pulse dialing instead, because it is much slower, tying up their dialing equipment for a longer time. Cheers, Bernard <Bernd> UUCP: ...!sdcsvax!sdcc12!wa371, Internet: wa371%sdcc12@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
elric@csustan.UUCP (Elric of Imrryr) (12/13/86)
In article <750@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU> wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) writes: >Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks >if I want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) >I have learned to politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always >works, whether ordered or not. >Bernard <Bernd> >UUCP: ...!sdcsvax!sdcc12!wa371, Internet: wa371%sdcc12@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu This may be due to the way which Touch Tone (TT) is enabled or disable by your local RBOC. If you have a non TT line your TIP & RING lines may be '+' and '-' respectably. When you request TT they reverse the polarity and then your TT AT&T phones will dial. Some new phones, and most modems ignore the line polarity. One company put out a device that replaces the mouth piece on a standard phone, with a TT keypad. I heard Pacfic Telesis (PT&T) used to just add TT charges to your bill, but I doubt they will try that again, after all the flack they got for signing people up for call waiting and other junk without asking them first. I wonder if using a TT phone, on a non TT line is toll fraud? Brad. -- elric Lunatic Labs @ Csustan {lll-crg,lll-lcc}!csustan!elric cryptography, terrorist, DES, drugs, cipher, secret, decode, AUTOVON NSA, CIA, NRO, KGB, GRU, Mossad, Libyan Hit Squad, assassination, OSI. The above is food for the Intelligence Agencies of the World.
plocher@puff.WISC.EDU (John Plocher) (12/13/86)
Bernd Riechelmann writes: > I have learned to politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always > works, whether ordered or not. Putting aside discussions of the morality of this... :-) I must say that it just ain't so *everywhere*. I live in a smallish town in Wisconsin (pop=3000) which has a MECHANICAL (relay) based Central Office. I had to order TT for my line because it didn't work "out of the box". The Phone Company came out to the CO and installed a DTMF => Pulse converter box between my line and their CO switch. The digital switches which are found in most major cities do not need this black box addition; in fact the enabling of TT is (can be) a simple software feature. As you seem to have found, sometimes this feature is always ON, but I'd think that the phone company would soon find out and fix the bug. (visions of a set-uid file owned by root which someone inadvertantly left writable by all... this is something sloppy which shouldn't have happened) ------ -- "Don't go to Pluto, its a Mickey Mouse planet!" - Mork ------------ {harvard,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!uwhsms!plocher (work) John Plocher {harvard,seismo}!uwvax!puff!plocher (school) ------------ decvax!encore!vaxine!spark!121!0!John_Plocher (FidoNet)
kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) (12/13/86)
In article <750@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU> wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) writes: >Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks >if I want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) >I have learned to politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always >works, whether ordered or not. >Before the breakup of the Bell System I once received a polite letter >from their San Francisco office, asking me to request Touchtone. >They had noticed that I was using it. I ignored the letter, and >never heard from them again. >Has anyone else made this observation? >To be fair, the extra charge should apply to pulse dialing instead, because >it is much slower, tying up their dialing equipment for a longer time. >Cheers, >Bernard <Bernd> >UUCP: ...!sdcsvax!sdcc12!wa371, Internet: wa371%sdcc12@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu I too noticed this about 3 years ago. I haven't tried it since, and besides, I can afford the $.55 a month :-) anyway, what else I noticed was that my touchtone(tm) pricess(tm) didn't ring... Now, for modems, this is all fine and dandy, but when you only have one touchtone phone. . . ________________________________________________________________________________ Sean Kamath UUCP: {masscomp, decvax, allegra, psu-cs, ucbcad, ucbvax, purdue, hplabs, hp-pcd, sequent, uw-beaver, ihnp4, cbosgd, gatech, nsc-pdc}!tektronix!reed!kamath CSNET: reed!kamath@Tektronix.CSNET BITNET: reed!kamath@Berkeley.BITNET ARPA: tektronix!reed!kamath@Berkeley reed!kamath@hplabs DECNET: RHEA::DECWRL::"decvax!tektronix!reed!kamath" US Snail: Box 395 Reed College, Portland, OR 97202 (503) 239-7458
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (12/13/86)
In article <750@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU>, wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) writes: > Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks > if I want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) > I have learned to politely refuse this feature, because Touchtone always > works, whether ordered or not. While your statement that Touch-tone (a trademark of AT&T, more generically called DTMF) "always works" may be based upon your own empirical observation, I can assure you that this is an incorrect assumption. All ESS central offices have the capability of selectively denying DTMF service to any given subscriber line; it only takes a minute or so using the CO tty. Crossbar central offices (which are slowly, but surely being superceded by ESS offices) can also deny DTMF service, but it requires 15 - 30 minutes of time for a switchman to change the line-link frame vertical assignment of the subscriber line, along with changing translator frame connections. Coonsequently, in a crossbar office, operating telephone companies are reluctant to actually expend the man-hours required to deny DTMF service to a customer who refuses to pay for it (the telco would rather cajole and/or threaten first...). > Before the breakup of the Bell System I once received a polite letter > from their San Francisco office, asking me to request Touchtone. > They had noticed that I was using it. I ignored the letter, and > never heard from them again. > Has anyone else made this observation? This is a relatively recent technique being used by BOC's to increase revenue: (1) give everyone DTMF service, (2) see who uses it without paying, (3) politely cajole/threaten so that the subscriber WILL pay. My personal opinion is that this is sort of like entrapment, because for many years ESS offices went to great lengths to make certain that NO ONE received DTMF access without a proper order and payment for such service. > To be fair, the extra charge should apply to pulse dialing instead, because > it is much slower, tying up their dialing equipment for a longer time. I agree with you 100%! 25 years ago when DTMF service first became available, it was a _luxury_, and rightfully subject to additional charge. Such additional charge is now an anachronism in the day of ESS offices. To put it more bluntly, such a charge is today a ripoff. I urge people to contact their respective state Public Utility Commissions and complain about this charge. <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|bbncca|decvax|nike|rocksanne|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {hplabs|ihnp4|mtune|seismo|utzoo}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (12/14/86)
In <750@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU> wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) writes: > Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks if I > want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) I have learned to > politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always works, whether > ordered or not. Last time I moved, we declined to pay for touch-tone and sure enough, our touch-tone phones didn't work ("dialing" a number wouldn't break dial tone). Sometime later, touch-tone started to work. This was the (212)-643-xxxx exchange. A few blocks away, I helped somebody move in who also hadn't ordered touch-tone, and lo and behold, touch-tone phones worked there. In my new apartment (212-636-xxxx), I similarly declined to pay for touch-tone service and sure enough, it doesn't work. I'm hoping that some day it starts to work by itself, but I'm not holding my breath. I am told that if the previous user of a line had touch tone, the phone company generally doesn't bother to remove that service from the line (my current phone is on a brand-new line; new trunk from the building to the CO, anyway). I'm also told that if (when) they take a mechanical switch out and replace it with ESS, every line automatically gets touchtone. I don't know for sure, but that's the word on the street. -- Roy Smith, {allegra,cmcl2,philabs}!phri!roy System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 "you can't spell deoxyribonucleic without unix!"
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (12/14/86)
Re: previous discussion about charges for Touch-tone service... In article <4842@reed.UUCP>, kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) writes: > ... > I too noticed this about 3 years ago. I haven't tried it since, and > besides, I can afford the $.55 a month :-) The charge for Touch-tone service from New York Telephone (a Nynex BOC) is $ 6.81 per line per month for business lines. This charge is not exactly trivial! If New York Telephone only charged $ .55 or even three times that, I probably wouldn't say a word about this topic. But an extra $ 6.81 (plus tax) per month is a ripoff! <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|bbncca|decvax|nike|rocksanne|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {hplabs|ihnp4|mtune|seismo|utzoo}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
leo@sunybcs.UUCP (Leo Wilson) (12/15/86)
In article <750@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU> wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) writes: >Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks >if I want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) >I have learned to politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always >works, whether ordered or not. >To be fair, the extra charge should apply to pulse dialing instead, because >it is much slower, tying up their dialing equipment for a longer time. I'm pretty sure this isn't a good place for this article, but lemme put in my two cents: The phone company seems to always want to charge people more fo this tone service that saves them money! There has been some discussion of it locally, but I think it's really a national (maybe inter-nat) problem. When I reported to the phone company that I was installing my modem they asked if I'd like to pay to save them money and when I gave the rep an earful he said something about the $2.00 charge (per month, NOT one-shot!) being imposed by the FCC. I don't know, I haven't the time to check, but it seems to me that the FCC would "allow" this charge, not "impose". I am using pulse dial still because I don't want to encourage people to charge more for cheaper service no matter how much more convenient it is, and as far as the services I'm supposedly missing out on, my phone has a convenient little switch that switches between pulse & tone. It sure would be nice if the phone company either gave some incentive for switching to tone service rather than charging, or just made it freely available. And it sure is stupid for anyone to pay extra for a service that costs the supplier less! -- Leo E. Wilson(leo@buffalo.csnet) Niagara Paper Company 364 West Delavan Avenue 99 Bud-Mil Drive Buffalo, NY 14213 Buffalo, NY 14206 (716)883-7573 (716)856-5135 (0830-1700)
normt@ihlpa.UUCP (N. R Tiedemann) (12/16/86)
> > To be fair, the extra charge should apply to pulse dialing instead, because > > it is much slower, tying up their dialing equipment for a longer time. > > I agree with you 100%! 25 years ago when DTMF service first became > available, it was a _luxury_, and rightfully subject to additional charge. > Such additional charge is now an anachronism in the day of ESS offices. To > put it more bluntly, such a charge is today a ripoff. I urge people to > contact their respective state Public Utility Commissions and complain about > this charge. > > <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York This is completely true, and there is no one who wants this change more, than the BOC's. They have to pay to maintain the dial pulse equipment, and then do the DTMF translation anyway for the common carriers. POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) is what the dial pulse phone is called, this is what everyone got, and anything else was an enhancement, thus the regulated companies had to charge for it. Norm Tiedemann AT&T Bell Labs ihnp4!ihlpa!normt
chris@cooper.UUCP (Chris Lent ) (12/18/86)
In article <750@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU> wa371@sdcc12.ucsd.EDU (Bernd Riechelmann) writes: >Whenever I order telephone service installed, the phone company asks >if I want to have Touchtone service (for an extra charge.) >I have learned to politely refuse this feature , because Touchtone always >works, whether ordered or not. >To be fair, the extra charge should apply to pulse dialing instead, because >it is much slower, tying up their dialing equipment for a longer time. New York Telephone sent out a letter recently (this fall) to customers saying "If you use Touchtone (R) service without paying for it we're going to charge you, as of XX/XX/86". I wasn't about to ask but it doesn't seem to affect my use of telephone credit cards from pulse dialed phone. That is if I dial 0 (area) local-number with pulse, eventually I get the "go-ahead" tone, switch to tone and dial the credit card number the call goes through fine. This also shows up on the bill as a direct-dialed credit card call (saving ~30 cents). Here's a bit of phone trivia that works in some places. Dial 958 and many times you get a generated voice telling you the number you are DIALING from. Enjoy -- Chris Lent ihnp4!allegra!phri!cooper!chris
dmt@mtunb.UUCP (Dave Tutelman) (12/18/86)
My recollection of history on this is that: - Almost from the first, pushbutton dialing was lower COST than dial pulsing. The phone sets were little more expensive, and the savings in holding time of the (shared) dial pulse/tone receivers more than made up for it. Thus, it was a bargain for the phone company. - Pushbutton dialing was introduced at a higher PRICE for a couple of reasons. (1) There was a need to control the demand, or it would be ordered faster than it could be manufactured and installed. (2) It made the regulators happy, as it was positioned as a premium service that could subsidize lower rates on POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service). Given that there is no longer that need to control demand, and it is so much more common than dial pulses that it can no longer be viewed as "premium", the continued premium price seems a ripoff to me. Score another for "value-of-service" rather than "cost-of-service" pricing. This strategy can ONLY be practiced by a monopoly, because in a free market the low-cost, high-price service will be offered at a lower price by someone else. Dave Tutelman
mlr0@bunny.UUCP (Martin Resnick) (12/19/86)
In article <1478@kitty.UUCP>, larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) writes: > While your statement that Touch-tone (a trademark of AT&T, more > generically called DTMF) "always works" [...] > [...] Touch-tone is no longer a trademark of AT&T.
ehrlich@psuvax1.UUCP (Dan Ehrlich) (12/19/86)
That is not the case here in State College, PA. We have two lines into
the house. One is touch tone, the other is not. A WEBCOR phone set to
generate touch tones does not work on the nont touch tone line. Maybe
PAC-TEL is just installing touch tone everywhere to make there life
easier?
--Daniel Ehrlich
UUCP: {burdvax,cbosgd,cmcl2,pitt,ihnp4}!psuvax1!ehrlich
CSNET: ehrlich@penn-state.csnet USPS: The Pennsylvania State University
INTERNET: ehrlich@psuvax1.psu.edu Department of Computer Science
BITNET: ehrlich@psuvax1.bitnet 333 Whitmore Laboratory
BELL: +1 814 863 1142 University Park, PA 16802
Quote: "The sky is blue so we know where to stop mowing." Judge Harold T. Stone
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are my own and do not reflect the
opinions, or policies, of The Pennsylvania State University or the
Department of Computer Science.david@ukma.ms.uky.csnet (David Herron, NPR Lover) (12/20/86)
In GTE land (Lexington, KY) touchtone doesn't work on a non-touchtone line. I have a Prometheus Pro-modem here, when it dials a phone number it first tries to do the first digit as touchtone, looks to see if the carrier tone went away, and since it didn't do the dial phone stuff. Oh, I currently live in an older neighborhood (read "student ghetto"), but last year when I was living in a more modern neightborhood I was getting the same results. I too see no reason to have to pay extra so I can have touchtone. All it will gain me is slightly faster dialing. (Well, there are a few fancy features now-adays, hold, call-forwarding, etc, but I'm not interested in them -- ESPECIALLY the one that announces an incoming caller with that silly beep tone!) -- David Herron, cbosgd!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET, david@ms.uky.csnet (I'm also "postmaster", "news", "netnews", "uucp", "mmdf", and ...) "What have I got in my pocketses?" -- I never heard such a stupid damn riddle!
ron@brl-sem.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (12/21/86)
In article <5370@ukma.ms.uky.csnet>, david@ukma.ms.uky.csnet (David Herron, NPR Lover) writes: > In GTE land (Lexington, KY) touchtone doesn't work on a non-touchtone > line. I have a Prometheus Pro-modem here, when it dials a phone number > it first tries to do the first digit as touchtone, looks to see > if the carrier tone went away, and since it didn't do the dial > phone stuff. Oh, I currently live in an older neighborhood (read > "student ghetto"), but last year when I was living in a more modern > neightborhood I was getting the same results. GTE phone service is notorious for not even offering touch-tone service. Down in Durham NC, if you asked for a push button phone, they would install one of GTE push the buttons and it will pulse dial for you kludges. -Ron
usenet@ablnc.ATT.COM (J.R. Smithson) (12/24/86)
You should also be aware of the software programmability of DTMF access made capable by new Digital Central Offices. Early versions of the 5ESS software relied on the data base to allow the hardware to decode DTMF or ignore it. When one of these central offices were first cut it seems that a significant number of telephones in town (Port St. Lucie, Florida) no longer were able to outdial. (The customers were using DTMF and not paying for it.) This prompted a hasty software change to provide 2 options for DTMF: 1) Ignore it on lines not paying for the service. (The original scheme.) 2) Allow it on all lines, but prepare a report of those lines using DTMF but not authorized. It is then up to the telco to take appropriate action. Such as sending warning letters to encourage customers to sign up for DTMF before reverting back to option # 1. It is up to the telco to decide which option is in force upon cutover, but most opt for #2. Jim Smithson ihnp4!ablnc!jrs2 (305)660-6991 Ex-5ESS System Integrity Flunkie for Bell Labs