W8SDZ@WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL (Keith Petersen) (01/06/89)
The following file was recently uploaded to a local BBS. I am not the
author. It is a message thread concerning the V.42 standard. This
message is long (about 14K) but considering its information value I am
posting it here. It is presented "as-is". FYI, Toby Nixon is
employed by Hayes.
--Keith Petersen <Info-Modems-Request@WSMR-Simtel20.Army.Mil>
--cut-here--V42-INFO.TXT--cut-here--
#: 112794 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
19-Aug-88 10:51:26
Sb: #112700-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Robert Blacher 72677,3305
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Toby -- On the Hayes V-Series 96 sysop deal, you mention that Hayes is
"committed" to an upgrade to CCITT v.42 and that these modems "will be
fully upgradable."
2 questions, if you or someone else happen to know:
(1) There has been a lot of talk about the difference between a modem
that is "compatible" with CCITT v.42 and one that implements fully the
standard. Any idea whether Hayes has resolved which of those paths it
will take?
(2) Has Hayes even given a ballpark price on the cost of the v.42
upgrade? I suspect an upgrade of this nature is gonna be one heck of a
lot more than a ROM swap (would you believe, a board swap?).
#: 112889 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
20-Aug-88 10:20:46
Sb: #112794-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: Robert Blacher 72677,3305 (X)
The official company position is that Hayes' V.42 implementations will
provide "a transition strategy" from MNP to LAPM. I can't say more --
but more details should be forthcoming soon. Likewise with the upgrade
prices -- watch the press. I'm quite sure, though, that it will be in
line with Hayes' previous upgrades, which have run in the $25-50 range.
I assure you that V.42 support in the V-series involves ONLY a ROM
change; do you think I would have let the CCITT make it more than that?!
:-)
-- Toby
#: 112901 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
20-Aug-88 11:30:41
Sb: #112889-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Robert Blacher 72677,3305
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Toby -- Thanks for your answer. The info you've provided is quite
helpful.
If I can, let me pose a few other questions to you that may clear this
high-speed modem standards mess up a bit more for folks.
(1) Once upgraded to V.42, what other 9600 bps modems currently on the
market, if any, will the Hayes V-Series be able to "talk to" at 9600
bps+? What about the V.32 modems now on the market and those less
expensive, downwardly compatible V.32 modems that are supposed to start
arriving any day/real soon now?
In that regard, you may want to clarify the difference between CCITT
V.42 and V.32. I could try but I think you'll do a *lot* better <grin>.
(2) Related to the above, if other high-speed modems currently on the
market will need to be modified to talk to an upgraded Hayes V-Series,
what's the likelihood of that happening? Go ahead and toot Hayes' horn
on the upgrade issue; we won't mind <grin>. But, what may be a ROM
change for the Hayes may be a board change for others (I have the USR
HST in mind given its wide use on BBS systems) and that's a factor folks
have to consider in determining the extent to which the current Tower of
Babel is going to come to an end.
I realize the above is a tall order but there's a lot of confusion out
there and your help in dealing with it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks very much.
#: 112914 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
20-Aug-88 13:07:25
Sb: #112901-Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: T. Boutell (ADOME BBS) 75006,1072
To: Robert Blacher 72677,3305 (X)
V.32 is a good deal better than V.42 in terms of performance, by the
way; it's bulletproof 9600 baud, but costs too much to implement at
present because of the echo- cancellation circuitry, apparently.
-Tom
#: 113033 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
21-Aug-88 21:15:53
Sb: #112901-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: Robert Blacher 72677,3305 (X)
CCITT V.42 defines an error-control protocol _only_, not a modulation
technique. It is designed to work with full-duplex modems that use
async-to-sync conversion. Specifically, this is CCITT V.22, V.22bis,
V.32, and V.26ter. Period. We also add Bell 212A in the US.
V.42 will not affect the ability of the various non-standard high-speed
modulation modems to communicate with each other in their high-speed
modes. As of this date (and for some time to come), the only 9600bps
full-duplex dial-up STANDARD that exists is V.32, and I'm sure that
you'll see the vast majority of manufacturers moving to provide V.42
capability on their V.32 modems.
Most of the V.32 modems on the market now are high-end products with
network management and other expensive features and are intended for use
in dial back-up on high-speed synchronous leased lines between
mainframes or mainframes and controllers. Because those applications
typically include error-control in their protocols, you won't see V.42
put into those modems. But the upcoming low-end V.32 products intended
for PCs will most definitely include V.42 protocol for error-control,
since the majority of PC applications are interactive async.
I can't really comment on the likelihood of other companies modifying
their products to be compatible with the Hayes V-Series Smartmodem 9600
high-speed modulation technique. USRobotics is the only company that
has publicly announced that they've licensed the technology, but they've
made no announcement of product intentions. I can tell you from
examination of the modem that the Courier HST could probably do the
VSM9600 modulation with just a ROM change, but just because it CAN be
done doesn't mean it WILL be done. It would be much more complex in
other products (probably impossible, for example, in MNP6 modems like
the Microcom AX/9624c) which use dedicated modem chipsets rather than
their own DSP-based design like the HST and the Telebit.
-- Toby
#: 113090 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
22-Aug-88 08:26:37
Sb: #113033-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Robert Blacher 72677,3305
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Toby -- I want to thank you very much for an incredibly concise and
coherent description of where we currently stand in the high-speed modem
market. You've done in a couple of paragraphs something I've yet to see
done as well in *LONG* articles in trade publications.
Two questions, both of which you're probably not going to be able to
answer, are inevitable after reading your message. Understanding you're
probably going to be forced to duck these, here they are nonetheless:
(1) The Hayes VSM9600 uses a "V.32-like" method of modulation. Is an
upgrade of that modem to full V.32 compliance feasible and, if so, can
you give some idea of what would be involved?
(2) Assuming the answer to the above is no, does Hayes currently have
any plans to market a modem that complies with both V.32 and V.42?
Again, I understand you may need to take the Fifth Amendment <grin>,
especially on the second question. In any event, I want to thank you
again for the extremely valuable information you have provided here.
BTW, I did not realize USR had licensed the VSM modulation technique
from Hayes. Very interesting .... Time to get the USR sysops to beat
up on that company a bit as well <grin>.
#: 113098 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
22-Aug-88 11:07:27
Sb: #113090-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: Robert Blacher 72677,3305 (X)
I'm not an eletronic engineer (I'm a protocol designer and software
engineer), but my understanding is that the VSM9600 can not be easily
upgraded to full V.32 because the circuitry it has is simply not capable
of doing the necessary echo cancellation. The echo canceller is the
most complex and expensive part of a V.32 modem, and we wouldn't be able
to sell the V-Series 9600 as inexpensively as we do (estimated retail
price $1,299) if it included an echo canceller.
Hayes as announced a separate product, the Smartmodem 9600 (_not_
V-series), that _is_ a full-duplex V.32 modem. Currently the product
supports only V.32 (async and sync, two- and four-wire, leased and
dial-up lines, 4800 and 9600 bps). The company hs announced that a
future version will support other lower-speed modulation techniques as
well (e.g., would be a Smartmodem 2400 plus full-duplex V.32). No
announcement has been made as to whether or not the company will have a
full-duplex V.32 modem with V.42 error control.
-- Toby
#: 113128 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
22-Aug-88 18:09:34
Sb: #113098-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Robert Blacher 72677,3305
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Toby -- This is *not* another series of questions! I just want to thank
you again for being so willing to provide such useful information re-
garding the Hayes VSM9600 and where that modem stands in a very confusing
market at the moment.
At the very least, your messages, which have been relayed to some of the
BBS boards, constitute the kind of clear, factual information that is
often somewhat hard to find in such debates.
#: 113216 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
23-Aug-88 08:53:59
Sb: #113128-Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: Robert Blacher 72677,3305 (X)
Thanks for the support. Its my pleasure.
-- Toby
#: 113239 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
23-Aug-88 13:39:09
Sb: #113033-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: John Wilson 76537,106
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Toby,
I, and the company I work for, both own a number of FastComm 2496
and FastComm 496t modems (9600 and 19200 baud). The two I have are
being used on my BBS at home and the six at work are used for access to
mainframe applications through a protocol converter for after hours
problem determination and resolution. I have not been happy with EVI's
support lately and have had numerous problems with the FastComms since
day one.
If we start buying Hayes VSM9600's to phase out the FastComms,
what is the likelyhood that they can CONNECT with each other. I would
love to get a couple for my BBS but need to also access the mainframe at
work as well.
John
#: 113342 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
24-Aug-88 08:18:20
Sb: #113239-Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: John Wilson 76537,106 (X)
A Hayes V-Series Smartmodem 9600 will connect with the Fastcomms at
2400bps without error control.
-- Toby
#: 112913 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
20-Aug-88 13:06:15
Sb: #112889-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: T. Boutell (ADOME BBS) 75006,1072
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
According to the folks at the Computer Show I visited this afternoon,
V42 standardizes on "both" MNP and LAPM, and as 36 manufacturers now
have MNP and Hayes is the only one pushing the other half of the
standard...
-Tom
#: 113034 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
21-Aug-88 21:16:09
Sb: #112913-Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: T. Boutell (ADOME BBS) 75006,1072 (X)
V.42 includes in an annex an alternative protocol which is supposed to
be compatible with MNP classes 2-4. But it was included for _backward_
compatibility only, and the standard explicitly states that all future
work will be based on the LAPM protocol, the primary protocol in the
body of the standard. This means that when such things as data
compression are standardized, they will apply to LAPM only.
Hayes is _not_ the only company that is "pushing" LAPM. A recent issue
of Data Communications magazine listed several companies (including
Hayes) which have announced intentions to provide V.42 modems. Hayes
has a strong commitment to V.42 and to serving the needs and desires of
our customers; more specific details of our V.42 plans will be announced
very soon.
-- Toby
#: 112833 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
19-Aug-88 20:37:12
Sb: #112700-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: T. Boutell (ADOME BBS) 75006,1072
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Oh, wonderful. You have to be a user group file server, in other words.
Thanks but no thanks. Back to USR we go.
-Tom
#: 112888 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
20-Aug-88 10:20:38
Sb: #112833-#Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Toby Nixon 70271,404
To: T. Boutell (ADOME BBS) 75006,1072 (X)
Tom, I wouldn't take it that way. "A specific group of users" may
simply mean some regular identifiable clientelle, not necessarily an
organized user's group. Don't write it off so easily -- give them a
call!
-- Toby
#: 112912 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
20-Aug-88 13:05:10
Sb: #112888-Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: T. Boutell (ADOME BBS) 75006,1072
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Really sounded like they meant a users' group, but I'll consider it. I
spoke to a Hayes representative at a computer show in Hartford, CT this
afternoon and he was well-informed. There was also a fellow from
Ven-Tel; I can sympathize with those folks - they have the most reliable
equipment and the smallest installed base.
-Tom
#: 113647 S4/Bulletin Boards (C)
26-Aug-88 15:38:33
Sb: #112700-Hayes VSM9600 discount
Fm: Earle Robinson 76004,1762
To: Toby Nixon 70271,404 (X)
Oh, rereading msgs already sent, I'm afraid that my use of 'suckers' may
have been misconstrued. I meant the modems, in a slangy sense, not the
eventual buyers. I hope no one misunderstood. -er
- end -