roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (11/24/89)
In article <18570@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> KUDLACEK@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: > The following document is going to sound EXACTLY like a mail order con. The reason it sounds like one is because it is one. This is a classic pyramid scheme. I'm not up on the law, but it's probably illegal (regardless of how much Kudlacek claims it isn't). If this was done via the US mail, it would probably be postal fraud. As it is, who knows? Maybe CERT should investigate this one? -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"
Howard_Reed_Johnson@cup.portal.com (11/24/89)
I would like to protest the exploitation of private and/or tax- supported resources for commercial gain as evidenced by the article <18570@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> by Kale Kudlacek (KUDLACEK@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>. This is a subtle twist on the familiar pyramid schemes many are familiar with. In essence, one receives a list of ten names and is asked to mail one dollar to each of the first five names on the list for the "privilege" of being included on a mailing list. For starters, distributing such a list (with the expectation of about $50,000 in 4-6 weeks) can legitimately be called a business, and as such, requires a license to do business, tax liabilities, etc. etc. Second, distributing such lists over BBS's, etc. constitutes commercial advertising: something which is often restricted or forbidden by the organizations with the resources used to distribute this advertising. Finally, I wouldn't want to make my home address made available to 50,000+ recipients for reasons of privacy. Most of the businesses which have my address have something to lose should they broadcast personal information to every shark with something to sell. This pyramid scheme can give me no such assurance.
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (11/26/89)
We live in interesting times. A Portal user bashes the commercial exploitation of Usenet... In article <24440@cup.portal.com> Howard_Reed_Johnson@cup.portal.com writes: >I would like to protest the exploitation of private and/or tax- >supported resources for commercial gain as evidenced by the article ><18570@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> by Kale Kudlacek (KUDLACEK@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>. The net is exploited for commercial frequently, though rarely as blatently. >For starters, distributing such a list (with the expectation of about >$50,000 in 4-6 weeks) can legitimately be called a business, and as such, >requires a license to do business, tax liabilities, etc. etc. First of all, not every type of business requires a licence, as long as you report your income properly. The only license my company has required in three years of business is a sales tax licence to allow us to buy wholesale and re-sell. Second, so what? If it was legitimate, a licence would be just a business expense. >Second, distributing such lists over BBS's, etc. constitutes commercial >advertising: something which is often restricted or forbidden by the >organizations with the resources used to distribute this advertising. Both Portal and a few of its users have done this kind of advertising before. There ARE legitimate channels on the net for posting ads or commercial announcements - they just aren't spread around as much as the mainstream. >Finally, I wouldn't want to make my home address made available to 50,000+ >recipients for reasons of privacy. Most of the businesses which have my >address have something to lose should they broadcast personal information >to every shark with something to sell. You mean like those businesses that buy and sell your name on mailing lists. If you subscribe to any magazines, belong to any large user groups, or get any commercial matter mailed to you on a regular basis, you name (as part of a mailing list) has probably been in many more places than you realize. >This pyramid scheme can give me no such assurance. Well, that's one reason not to participate. Can you think of any others? -- Evan Leibovitch, Telly Computing, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan European heaven: English police, French chefs, German engineers, Italian lovers European hell: German police, English chefs, Italian engineers, Swiss lovers
akcs.larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder) (11/27/89)
>US mail, it would probably be postal fraud. As it is, who knows? Maybe >CERT should investigate this one? Who is CERT?
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (11/27/89)
In <[257053a3:84.3]comp.dcom.modems;1@nstar.UUCP> akcs.larry@nstar.UUCP
(Larry Snyder) "Who is CERT?". They are the Computer Emergency Response
Team, a group set up to keep the world safe from computer viruses and other
acts of electronic terrorism. Even though I'm the one who brought it up, I
seriously doubt if dealing with electonic chain letters is in their ballpark.
--
Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
{att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu
"The connector is the network"powell@issm (Mike Powell "Networks are Nifty") (11/28/89)
THis is the second time I saw this exact same article, but in a different
news group. it originated near here and I intend to contact the
sysop of the original machine.
--
Mike Powell (need a change of altitude)
Disclaimer: I speak for myself and only myself.
internet: powell@issm.iss.contel.com
Usenet: {contel-fss,issm}!powellmbr@aoa.UUCP (Mark Rosenthal) (11/28/89)
In article <18570@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> KUDLACEK@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu posts a chain letter disguised as a mailing list business. He also says: > NOTE: Make sure you retain EVERY Name and Address sent > to you, either on computer or hard copy, but do not > discard the names and notes they send you. This is > PROOF that you are truely providing a service and > should the IRS or some other Government Agency > question you, you can provide them with this PROOF! Forget, for the moment, the questionable legality of the endeavor and its dubious chances for success. Simply, consider how long it would take you to file 50,000 pieces of correspondence and how much space it would take up to store the letters. Of course, if you want to convince a government agency that you are really assembling and selling a mailing list rather than running an illegal chain letter scam, it probably would not be too convincing if you just stored the names in hard copy and did nothing with them. So you'll have to key them in to your computer. How long would it take to type in 50,000 names and addresses? A typical database record would be: First_name Last_name No. Street_name Street City, State Zip That's eight words. A competent typist typically types at a rate of about 60 words per minute. So that's 8/60 minutes or about 8 seconds per record. Let's assume (optimistically) that it takes about 5 seconds to open the next envelope and refind home position on the keyboard to type in the next address. That's 13 seconds per record. So 50,000 would take 650,000 seconds to enter into the database. 650,000 seconds is approximately 22.5 workdays (at 8 hours per day). The average workmonth is 21.7 workdays, so this is just about one typical workmonth just to do the bookkeeping! And I haven't even included the time necessary to count the cash, endorse the checks, and make the deposits. Now, $50,000 for 1 month of work is not too shabby. Just don't get the impression that you're doing no work at all. If you later find out that the IRS has decided you have to keep some additional information on each item, you could suddenly find yourself required to do several additional months of work. The point is that 50,000 times a very small time increment can add up to A LOT! -- Mark of the Valley of Roses ...!bbn.com!aoa!mbr