[comp.dcom.modems] V.32bis frozen?

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) (01/19/91)

I've heard that since the V.32bis standard hasn't been frozen yet, the
USR modems with V.32bis cannot be guaranteed to work with whatever
the eventual standard is.

Is this true?

Also, do you think Telebit will be incorporating V.32bis once the
standard is frozen?

--
Rich Carreiro                                    The "War on Drugs"
ARPA: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu                      is merely a smokescreen for
UUCP: ...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!rlcarr            The War on the Constitution
BITNET: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu      JITTLOV FOREVER!

tnixon@hayes.uucp (01/24/91)

In article <1991Jan19.015521.22170@athena.mit.edu>,
rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes: 

> I've heard that since the V.32bis standard hasn't been frozen yet, the
> USR modems with V.32bis cannot be guaranteed to work with whatever
> the eventual standard is.
> 
> Is this true?

No.  V.32bis has been technically accepted by CCITT Study Group 
XVII, and is currently under ballot among the CCITT member 
countries.  The ballot closes on February 22nd.  It is _extremely_ 
unlikely that V.32bis would not pass this ballot unanimously, and
only 70% affirmative votes are required for it to be formally
adopted as a CCITT Recommendation. If there were 31% or more NO 
votes (an infinitesimally small chance), then the Study Group would 
have to take technical comments into consideration and rework the 
document.  But, unless it is voted down, there will be NO TECHNICAL 
CHANGES to V.32bis before it is adopted.

-- 
Toby Nixon, Principal Engineer    | Voice   +1-404-449-8791  Telex 151243420
Hayes Microcomputer Products Inc. | Fax     +1-404-447-0178  CIS   70271,404
P.O. Box 105203                   | UUCP uunet!hayes!tnixon  AT&T    !tnixon
Atlanta, Georgia  30348  USA      | Internet       hayes!tnixon@uunet.uu.net

root@zswamp.fidonet.org (Geoffrey Welsh) (01/27/91)

 >From: tnixon@hayes.uucp

 >In article <1991Jan19.015521.22170@athena.mit.edu>,
 >rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes: 

> I've heard that since the V.32bis standard hasn't been frozen yet, the
> USR modems with V.32bis cannot be guaranteed to work with whatever
> the eventual standard is.

 >[...]  But, unless it is voted down, there will be NO 
 >TECHNICAL CHANGES to V.32bis before it is adopted.

   This should not diminish the buyers' caution: the manufacturers may ttake 
some time to work out the finer points of protocol negotiation, etc.

   [I realize that, considering your employment, you may not wish to agree with 
me on this issue]

   In my opinion, this is not a good time to be shopping for a high-speed 
modem.  Even the V.42 and V.42bis firmware that I've been playing with lately 
tends to cause bugaboos when calling anything but the device's twin.  I suspect 
that it will be a while before manufacturers get the broad feedback and 
fine-tune their products to the point where V.42bis over V.32bis connections 
will work with the same simple reliability that calling from a 2400 currently 
does.
 

--  
UUCP:     watmath!xenitec!zswamp!root | 602-66 Mooregate Crescent
Internet: root@zswamp.fidonet.org     | Kitchener, Ontario
FidoNet:  SYSOP, 1:221/171            | N2M 5E6 CANADA
Data:     (519) 742-8939              | (519) 741-9553
MC Hammer, n. Device used to ensure firm seating of MicroChannel boards
Try our new Molson 'C' compiler... it specializes in 'case' statements!

schuster@cup.portal.com (Michael Alan Schuster) (01/30/91)

>In my opinion, this is not a good time to be shopping for a high-speed 
>modem.  Even the V.42 and V.42bis firmware that I've been playing with lately 
>tends to cause bugaboos when calling anything but the device's twin.  I suspec
t

Heh. I have to laugh at this comment. Has there =ever= been a "good time" to
shop for a high-speed modem? Is there likely to be one in the next year?
They don't call it the "bleeding edge" for nothing.

Frankly, I don't worry about immature firware. That's what tech support folks
are for. As long as the hardware design is solid, and the company is willing
to support it without having you mail back the modem for something as
trivial as a chip swap.

tech@mich-ns.UUCP (Mich. Network Sys. TECH SUPPORT) (02/28/91)

In article <1991Jan19.015521.22170@athena.mit.edu> rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes:
>I've heard that since the V.32bis standard hasn't been frozen yet, the
>USR modems with V.32bis cannot be guaranteed to work with whatever
>the eventual standard is.
>
>Is this true?
>
>Also, do you think Telebit will be incorporating V.32bis once the
>standard is frozen?
>

As I Telebit distributor, I can assure you that Telebit will have a 
very good V.32bis program. This will come in the form of new products
as well as upgrade paths. There is rumored to be a prototype already 
in the final stages of testing, but nothing concrete yet.
 
Regarding the USR modems currently offering "V.32bis": You are correct:
There are no guarentees that it will be compliant with the final standards
which will be voted on by the CCITT on March 1st. You have to ask USR 
if they will provide a fix FREE OF CHARGE if the final standard turns out 
to be different. If the answer is NO, then perhaps its time for a little
patience in waiting for V.32bis.
 
Telebit's motto is "We will sell no modem before its time" (I know - its
an over-used cliche). When the standard is finalized, Telebit will put
the finishing touches on its V.32bis products and only after extensive
testing, will it release the product.
 
I really don't know what all of the fuss is about V.32bis. PEP will 
out-perform V.32bis in a lot of cases and PEP may even be getting
faster in future products. 
 
John
Michigan Network Systems.
-- 
Michigan Network Systems        Technical Support Division
Telebit/SCO/Digiboard Reseller  BBS: +1 313 343 0800 
1-800-736-5984

grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) (03/01/91)

In article <15@mich-ns.UUCP> tech@.UUCP (Mich. Network Sys. TECH SUPPORT) writes:
>  
> I really don't know what all of the fuss is about V.32bis. PEP will 
> out-perform V.32bis in a lot of cases and PEP may even be getting
> faster in future products. 

The fuss is simple.  I like Telebit modems, we've bought dozens, they
work good.  On the other hand, I can't justify buying any new modems
that don't also support V.32bis, nor do I wish to buy any V.32bis modems
that don't talk to PEP.

Therefore until Telebit publicly commits to a PEP/V.32bis product I can't
plan for new Telebit modems, nor do I wish to go to their competition.

No modem before it's time, I can understand.  No public commitment
indicates some kind of lack of faith and promotes the suspicion that
Telebit is no longer competitive now that V32.bis is a official
standard and PEP only a highly useful defacto auxilliary mode...

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing:   domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Commodore, Engineering Department     phone:  215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)

jparnas@larouch.uucp (Jacob Parnas) (03/03/91)

In article <15@mich-ns.UUCP>, tech@mich-ns.UUCP (Mich. Network Sys. TECH SUPPORT) writes:
|> ...
|> Telebit's motto is "We will sell no modem before its time" (I know - its
|> an over-used cliche). When the standard is finalized, Telebit will put
|> the finishing touches on its V.32bis products and only after extensive
|> testing, will it release the product.
|>  
|> John
|> Michigan Network Systems.
|> Telebit/SCO/Digiboard Reseller  BBS: +1 313 343 0800 
|> 1-800-736-5984

I don't mean to pick on you or Telebit personally John, but I'd like to
say that a lot of modem vendors lose my business (and my guess is a lot
of other people's business too) due to this policy.  Our main use of modems
is purely for SLIP from home to our lab.  SLIP is a protocol that requires
all of the speed that it can get.  The difference between 9600 and 14400 base
speed is extremely noticable using stuff like ftp, xmh, and many other programs
over SLIP's TCP/IP link.  Many of our users use work machines from home
machines over SLIP for hours a day.  Thus, having V.32bis months earlier than
other modem vendors is a gigantic plus for vendors that get it early like
US Robotics.

I've found the V.32 bis modem from US Robotics to be very reliable in the
week and half I've been using it.  Their modems have proven to be more reliable
over lines with noise than at least one vendor that uses the motto you
mention in your article (See Data Communication's recent article on high
speed modems).  Further, I'm fairly confident that if there is a change 
in the final V.32 bis standard, they will have an new prom available to fix
it (if they don't, it would really hurt them in the future).  Absolute
worst case is that I have to connect at V.42 bis instead of V.32 bis to 
some other places in the future (which we rarely do).

It seems that for me and other people that really benefit from increased
speed, buying modems from vendors that get high speed protocols implemented
very early is the only smart way to go.

Telebit is a fine company.  I don't mean to insult them.  Their PEP protocol
is really the only way to go over very poor phone lines and is excellent
for UUCP transfers.  I just think wish they and other vendors would understand
that for many people, the speed of the modem as long as it is fairly reliable
is the most important aspect of a modem.  

I'd also like to thank and congratulate vendors that get high speed modems
out really early.  They make my work from home more pleasant and productive.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jacob M. Parnas                    | DISCLAIMER: The above message is from |
| IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Ctr. | me and is not from my employer.  IBM  |
| Arpanet: jparnas@ibm.com           | might completely disagree with me.    |
| Bitnet: jparnas@yktvmx.bitnet      \---------------------------------------|
| Home: ..!uunet!bywater!acheron!larouch!jparnas | Phone: (914) 945-1635     |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tech@mich-ns.UUCP (Mich. Network Sys. TECH SUPPORT) (03/04/91)

In article <19377@cbmvax.commodore.com> grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
"In article <15@mich-ns.UUCP> tech@.UUCP (Mich. Network Sys. TECH SUPPORT) writes:
">  
"> I really don't know what all of the fuss is about V.32bis. PEP will 
"> out-perform V.32bis in a lot of cases and PEP may even be getting
"> faster in future products. 
"
"The fuss is simple.  I like Telebit modems, we've bought dozens, they
"work good.  On the other hand, I can't justify buying any new modems
"that don't also support V.32bis, nor do I wish to buy any V.32bis modems
"that don't talk to PEP.
"
"Therefore until Telebit publicly commits to a PEP/V.32bis product I can't
"plan for new Telebit modems, nor do I wish to go to their competition.
"
"No modem before it's time, I can understand.  No public commitment
"indicates some kind of lack of faith and promotes the suspicion that
"Telebit is no longer competitive now that V32.bis is a official
"standard and PEP only a highly useful defacto auxilliary mode...
"
"-- 

But they HAVE made a commitment to V.32bis. If you call 1-800-TELEBIT
and ask them if they will support V.32bis, they will tell you YES -
ABSOLUTLY! That is what they are telling the distributors and the 
public. They do not yet have a V.32bis modem out because V.32bis as a
standard has not yet stabilized. Anything that you get out there today
that is "V.32bis" is likley to be an unstable implementation. 

Again - what is the big deal with V.32bis. Like I said. Current and
future implementations of PEP will blow it away. If you need to be 
compatible with other standards, get a T2500. As I understand, V.32bis
modems will talk to V.32 modems just fine.  (I may be wrong). Telebit
tells me that they WILL be supporting V.32bis in both new products and
product upgrades. I'm sure they will provide an upgrade for their T2500
since this is their top-of-the-line modem. 

John 
tech@mich-ns



-- 
Michigan Network Systems        Technical Support Division
Telebit/SCO/Digiboard Reseller  BBS: +1 313 343 0800 
1-800-736-5984

larry@nstar.rn.com (Larry Snyder) (03/04/91)

tech@mich-ns.UUCP (Mich. Network Sys. TECH SUPPORT) writes:

>standard has not yet stabilized. Anything that you get out there today
>that is "V.32bis" is likley to be an unstable implementation. 

Yes - but if the vendor is willing to continue to support the product
as v.32bis is ratified - nothing is lost -

In our case, we needed the additional throughput of v.32bis since
we are running a pair of USR V.32/v.32bis/v.42bis modems over a leased
line running SLIP.  The USR modems produce ftp transfers of around 2.4 kb/sec
while the pure V.32 only around 1.4.  Since USR is the only company currently
shipping v.32bis, their modems are in use.  USR promises upgrades to keep
the modems current with v.32bis as it is ratified - and USR has a 
history of excellent support with free ROM upgrades fixing bugs and
adding features.

-- 
   Larry Snyder, NSTAR Public Access Unix 219-289-0287 (HST/PEP/V.32/v.42bis)
                        regional UUCP mapping coordinator 
               {larry@nstar.rn.com, ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!larry}