jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) (03/04/90)
I have another (sigh) question about domains. I've been told that in order to use domains, I would have to register my site with an Internet site (uunet, for example). I don't understand this. Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use it anyway, without registering? I realize that mail will not be able to traverse into the realm of Internet. But isn't it the eventual goal to have everyone using domains anyway? Why can't I just add the entry to my map (assuming, of course, I don't care about Internet)? Can anyone explain this? Thanx in advance. -- Jesse W. Asher - Dynasys - (901)382-1705 Evening: (901)382-1609 6196-1 Macon Rd., Suite 200, Memphis, TN 38134 UUCP: {uunet,fedeva,rayo}!dynasys!jessea
karl@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (03/04/90)
The problem is that, if you don't register a domain name with the NIC, then all you've done by changing your UUCP map entry is to change the name by which you're referred in UUCP addressing, which is to say that you've done yourself no good at all: Given that people can already reach you via the existing UUCP registry, you gain nothing by changing (adding what amount to aliases for) that name. The win of registering a domain name properly is that anyone anywhere can then reach you. And they don't have to know _how_ you're being reached, since domain addresses imply no routing or transport. I suppose you _could_ just add a domain name to your map entry, if you could get it past your regional map coordinator (which I doubt). But it seems awfully pointless. --karl
scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) (03/05/90)
jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) writes: >I have another (sigh) question about domains. I've been told that >in order to use domains, I would have to register my site with >an Internet site (uunet, for example). I don't understand this. >Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use >it anyway, without registering? I realize that mail will not be >able to traverse into the realm of Internet. But isn't it the eventual goal >to have everyone using domains anyway? Why can't I just add the entry >to my map (assuming, of course, I don't care about Internet)? Can >anyone explain this? Thanx in advance. Curious that you should ask this just now . . . we've recently found a few sites doing just that in mi.us and mi.org. You might appreciate knowing what happened. Mail started showing up at some of the central distribution points for the michigan domains with no obvious place to send it. After looking it over and seeing no obvious way to get it out, it was returned to sender. Result 1: some of your mail won't get delivered, and the postmasters who are stuck with it will become irritated. We then found some sites that put the addresses in their uucp maps but never registered them on the internet. Pure internet sites (which don't necessarily use the map if it looks like a valid internet address) cannot mail to that address. Result 2: some of your mail won't get delivered, and the postmasters who are stuck with it will become angry. We then found some sites that even sent in the registration papers saying their mail should be forwarded thru specific internet sites, but they neglected to ask those sites if it was OK. The agencies in charge of the MX records assumed (reasonably) that the registering site had permission to use the internet site, and suddenly that internet site was hit with unexpected and undeliverable mail. Result 3: some of your mail won't get delivered, and the postmasters who are stuck with it will become very angry, along with the NIC and ISI. We then got out the rakes, shovels, and implements of destruction and did our damnedest to ensure this will never happen again. The people who misused the registrations are going to have a damned hard time getting more than the absolute minimum co-operation from the major local mail relay sites. Result 4: you will have to register anyway, after recieving a metaphoric black eye in the local email community. Other states may be different, but in Michigan I'd suggest you register. Steve Simmons, speaking as a member of but not for the Michigan Mail Mafia (mi.org, mi.us). -- Steve Simmons ...sharkey!lokkur!scs scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us "My occupational hazard's that my occupation's just not around." -- Jimmy Buffet
clarke@acheron.uucp (Ed Clarke/10240000) (03/05/90)
From article <72@dynasys.UUCP>, by jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher): > Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use > it anyway, without registering? I realize that mail will not be > able to traverse into the realm of Internet. And when someone sends mail to jessea@dynasys.com via uunet and the MX lookup fails, your mail will be returned to sender - address unknown. You can't do this - it's like changing your mailing address without moving ( example: deciding you don't like Tennesee and declaring that Memphis is now part of California. Mail to Jesse in Memphis Ca. will probably be returned to sender [if it's not simply lost] ). I see that you're a uunet.uu.net customer. They can register you for real at a nominal fee ( worth it to avoid the paperwork ). -- Ed Clarke | Happiness, n. An agreeable sensation arising from acheron!clarke | contemplating the misery of another. - Ambrose Bierce
dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott) (03/05/90)
In article <KARL.90Mar4084303@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu> karl@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) writes: >I suppose you _could_ just add a domain name to your map entry, if you >could get it past your regional map coordinator (which I doubt). But >it seems awfully pointless. It could also lose mail. A number of sites I know of (including mine) use the rules: If the domain is local or directly connected, send directly. If there is a domain other than "UUCP", send to the internet forwarding host. If the domain is "UUCP", look it up in the maps and send by that route (we use smail for this). Otherwise, assume local mail. A non-"UUCP" domain in the UUCP maps gets sent to the internet forwarding host. If they don't check the UUCP maps themselves, the mail gets bounced. The above rules may not be correct, but they work pretty well, especially since they force use of the Internet as much as possible. -- David Elliott dce@smsc.sony.com | ...!{uunet,mips}!sonyusa!dce (408)944-4073 "...it becomes natural, like a third sense." -- Homer Simpson
spaf@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford) (03/05/90)
In article <72@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) asks
why he can't just make up a domain, put it in his uucp map entry, and
then use it without going through the formal registration period.
Well, there are a number of reasons. The first is that large numbers
of sites out there (ours included) use the nameservers to resolve
addresses. If you made up your own domain (say, dynasys.com), and
started using it, all of the sites that use nameservers, or that
forward their domain-ized mail to sites with nameservers, would
suddenly be unable to communicate with your site. For instance, if I
tried to send mail to someone with an address like that, it would come
back with an "unknown domain" error. The number of sites in this
category is large, and growing larger everyday; it also includes most
"major" sites on the net. We don't use the uucp maps to send mail to
sites with proper domain names. I suspect you wouldn't even be able to
get mail through uunet, since I bet the mailer there does exactly the
same thing as ours.
A second good reason is collisions. Maybe you're the only dynasys in
the world. Maybe not. If you don't have a central authority that
tracks names and ensures there are no collisions, you may suddenly
find that some other place out there is also going by the name
"dynasys.com" -- and they've registered their name so you're out of
luck.
A third reason is that I bet the folks maintaining the maps won't take
a domain name in a map entry unless it is registered somewhere.
If you're going to do it, do it right. Get a properly registered domain.
--
Gene Spafford
NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center,
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf
schoff@psi.com (Marty Schoffstall) (03/05/90)
You can request a domain based address without the help of an Internet site. One fills out the domain registration form and submits it to hostmaster@nic.ddn.mil (who can also send you an electronic form of the registration). -- Martin L. Schoffstall Performance Systems Internationl Inc. Reston Virgina, US schoff@psi.com
markw@gvlf1-c.gvl.unisys.com (Mark H. Weber) (03/05/90)
In article <72@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) writes: > >Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use >it anyway, without registering? I realize that mail will not be >able to traverse into the realm of Internet. But isn't it the eventual goal >to have everyone using domains anyway? Why can't I just add the entry >to my map (assuming, of course, I don't care about Internet)? > There are several reasons for registering: 1) Domain names must be unique, so there must be some central registry of all domain names to prevent duplicates. This is done by the Network Information Center (NIC) of the Defense Data Network (DDN). The UUNET registration service is one of several "user interfaces" into the NIC. 2) Use of a domain name implies to most sites that the mail can be delivered via use of the Internet name servers. Very few sites use the uucp maps to determine uucp paths to sites with domain names. If you do not register, sites which do not read the maps will bounce your mail back to the sender. This leads to: 3) In order to use the Internet name servers, you must have an "Internet forwarder", and Internet site which will agree to get your mail off of the Internet and forward it to you via uucp. Hope this helps, Mark -- Mark H. Weber | Internet: markw@GVL.Unisys.COM Unisys - Great Valley Labs | UUCP: ...!uunet!lgnp1!gvlv2!markw Paoli, PA USA (215) 648-7111 | ...!psuvax1!burdvax!gvlv2!markw
lmb@vicom.com (Larry Blair) (03/06/90)
In article <1990Mar5.011734.29495@psi.com> schoff@psi.com (Marty Schoffstall) writes:
=You can request a domain based address without the help of an Internet
=site. One fills out the domain registration form and submits it to
=hostmaster@nic.ddn.mil (who can also send you an electronic form
=of the registration).
Yea? Well who's going to hold your MX record? And who's going to forward
your mail?
--
Larry Blair ames!vsi1!lmb lmb@vicom.com
john@jetson.UPMA.MD.US (John Owens) (03/06/90)
In article <1990Mar4.165936.16634@acheron.uucp> clarke@acheron.uucp (Ed Clarke/10240000) writes:
I see that you're a uunet.uu.net customer. They can register you for
real at a nominal fee ( worth it to avoid the paperwork ).
uunet customers can get registered for no extra fee. Non-uunet
customers can be registered by uunet for either $30 or $35. ($30 is
the one-month uunet "membership fee" or whatever it's called.)
--
John Owens john@jetson.UPMA.MD.US uunet!jetson!john
+1 301 249 6000 john%jetson.uucp@uunet.uu.net
david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- a slipped disk) (03/06/90)
Simple.. For the domain system to be effective everybody must agree on the names. This pretty much means a fairly centralized control of the names. Earlier a totally centralized control was attempted, but this was found to be unworkable. The turn around time to get entries into the Official File became horrendous and, I'm sure, the network bandwidth in transferring the Official File from the Official Site to hither and yon was driving the Official Site batty. So now we have a distributed control of the naming tree. In order to establish a domain name at some level, say .com, you talk to the authority at that level. In this case hostmaster@nic.ddn.mil. You tell he guy and/or gal you want this name, say mmdf.com. And they mumble for awhile and decide you're ok and let you have it. That's the hard part, now whenever you want to add an entry into mmdf.com, say davids.mmdf.com, you just add a record to the nameserver servicing your domain. For instance this amiga sitting at the other end of the table from my Unix PC (the Unix PC is davids.mmdf.com) may well soon become known as amy.mmdf.com. Right now amy is known as amy.funky-do-do. That's because I was installing UUCP & mail & Usenet on it, the software asked for a domain name and I knew I'd better not use one of the legal domain suffixes. So I made one up. Weird sh*t, huh? :-) All that'll be required is telling the guy at rutgers who takes care of my domain file to add in another MX record... -- <- David Herron; an MMDF guy <david@ms.uky.edu> <- ska: David le casse\*' {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET <- <- Now arrived at a nameserver near you: david@davids.mmdf.com
tonyg@eagle.cvs.rochester.edu (Tony Giaccone) (03/09/90)
Ok, I know this is probably not the best way to go about this, but I can't think of a better one. I've recently found myself with very limited internet access (through this account which is about 350 miles away from my currently real location). I've got a copy of uupc, and I'd like to make my home machine a uucp host primarily for recieving mail, but possibly for news reading as well. My questions are: 1) I've heard of folks talking abouut uunet, and seen mail addresses that have uunet in the domain name. Who are uunet, and what services do they provide. Second, I get the impression from this line of postings that I could register my name and become a "real" internet host. What is the significance of this name registration, and how do I do it? If you've got some advice, please mail to this account tonyg@cvs.rochester.edu Thanks in advance. Tony
ben@val.com (Ben Thornton) (03/10/90)
spaf@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford) writes: > We don't use the uucp maps to send mail to sites with proper > domain names. This brings up a question I have had for some time: Who DOES use the domain name information contained in the UUCP maps? ...and why? Seems superfluous to me if you have a valid registered domain... -- Ben Thornton packet: WD5HLS @ KB5PM Internet: ben@val.com Video Associates Labs uucp: ...!cs.utexas.edu!val!ben Austin, TX fidonet: 1:382/40 - The Antenna Farm BBS
syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) (03/11/90)
ben@val.com (Ben Thornton) writes: > This brings up a question I have had for some time: Who DOES >use the domain name information contained in the UUCP maps? >...and why? Seems superfluous to me if you have a valid registered >domain... Ok, there are two reasons why... 1. I list my return address in my reply-to field as syd@DSI.COM, note that dsi.com is not our uucp name. How would a uucp site get that message to me if they could not figure out that dsi.com == dsinc. 2. I use that information, in a reverse fashion to see if I can get to that site via smtp or via uucp. -- ===================================================================== Sydney S. Weinstein, CDP, CCP Elm Coordinator Datacomp Systems, Inc. Voice: (215) 947-9900 syd@DSI.COM or bpa!dsinc!syd FAX: (215) 938-0235
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (03/12/90)
In article <1990Mar9.191451.28093@val.com> ben@val.com (Ben Thornton) writes: > This brings up a question I have had for some time: Who DOES > use the domain name information contained in the UUCP maps? Unless you're fairly close to the internet (like right on it), or have few reliable non-internet neighbors, the maps are a better than depending on the domain information... unless you *like* putting all your eggs in one basket. -- _--_|\ `-_-' Peter da Silva. +1 713 274 5180. <peter@ficc.uu.net>. / \ 'U` \_.--._/ v
gwollman@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Garrett A Wollman) (03/12/90)
In article <1990Mar10.195008.15998@DSI.COM> syd@DSI.COM writes: >2. I use that information, in a reverse fashion to see if I can >get to that site via smtp or via uucp. I've been wondering, what type of software does it take do do this? That is, how do you go from, say, aplcen!mimsy!uunet!uvm-gen!gb to gb@uvm-gen.UVM.EDU? And do you place any preferences on, for instance, mail which would be MX'd vs. UUCP mail (f.ins., UVM is on CSNET)? -GAWollman "Inquiring minds don't read the Enquirer" (...) -- "All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and children. . . . As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other bases is possible." - Lazarus Long [RAH, _TEFL_] ---------------Hopkins doesn't *want* my opinions------------------------
syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) (03/12/90)
gwollman@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Garrett A Wollman) writes: >In article <1990Mar10.195008.15998@DSI.COM> syd@DSI.COM writes: >>2. I use that information, in a reverse fashion to see if I can >>get to that site via smtp or via uucp. >I've been wondering, what type of software does it take do do this? Its really simple, and first off, let me say I am not doing rerouting. What I do is that the path I was given, say a!b!c!d!e!f and start looking for a match in a file I call rpaths. I look for longest match starting with the full path less the final user name. I keep looking for an exact match stripping off the right most site until the string is empty, or I get a match. If I get a match, I turn the address into uucp-remainder (stuff I stripped off on the right) @ site. Thus if rpaths contained a!b!c!d:site.domain it would be e!f@site.domain and then I route that as normal. Rpaths is made using a simple shell and perl script from the maps. I grep the maps for the = lines, deleting all comment info and getting just the first site on the line for those that list many, or the first site in a row for those that take multiple lines for it. And then look up using pathalias the path to get there, sort those, delete my neighbors I want to use uucp for, and store it in a file as path:site. -- ===================================================================== Sydney S. Weinstein, CDP, CCP Elm Coordinator Datacomp Systems, Inc. Voice: (215) 947-9900 syd@DSI.COM or bpa!dsinc!syd FAX: (215) 938-0235
chris@vision.UUCP (Chris Davies) (03/13/90)
In article <1990Mar9.191451.28093@val.com> ben@val.com (Ben Thornton) writes: > This brings up a question I have had for some time: Who DOES >use the domain name information contained in the UUCP maps? >...and why? Seems superfluous to me if you have a valid registered >domain... Sites which are not on the internet often have to use UUCP maps. The whole world doesn't revolve around the internet y'know! :-) [Yet!] We use domain information to route all our mail via the UK gateway (ukc.ac.uk), unless there is a "better" way of sending email. In practice this means that a direct link exists from our site to the destination. Eg. We have a direct link to vware.mn.org. Thus we can use that machine to route all our .mn.org email (assuming we've permission of the sysadmin for vware, of course). Chris -- VISIONWARE LTD | UK: chris@vision.uucp JANET: chris%vision.uucp@ukc 57 Cardigan Lane | US: chris@vware.mn.org OTHER: chris@vision.co.uk LEEDS LS4 2LE | BANGNET: ...{backbone}!ukc!vision!chris England | VOICE: +44 532 788858 FAX: +44 532 304676 -------------- "VisionWare: The home of DOS/UNIX/X integration" --------------
lyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Lyndon Nerenberg) (03/13/90)
In article <1990Mar9.191451.28093@val.com> ben@val.com (Ben Thornton) writes: > This brings up a question I have had for some time: Who DOES >use the domain name information contained in the UUCP maps? >...and why? Seems superfluous to me if you have a valid registered >domain... We do, for one. Since we don't have a direct internet connection, it makes sense to use a route extrapolated from the uucp maps before punting to a top level domain gateway. We do the same thing for bitnet hosts. -- Lyndon Nerenberg VE6BBM / Computing Services / Athabasca University {alberta,decwrl}!atha!lyndon || lyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA UREP: Peru in disguise?
zeeff@b-tech.ann-arbor.mi.us (Jon Zeeff) (03/14/90)
>>use the domain name information contained in the UUCP maps? > >note that dsi.com is not our uucp name. How would a uucp site get >that message to me if they could not figure out that dsi.com == dsinc. Probably by forwarding it to an internet site, just like it does for mail to user@xxx.domain where xxx.domain is any internet site that knows nothing about uucp. I purposely leave my domain name out of the uucp maps because I don't want some overintelligent uucp only site rerouting my user@domain mail completely via uucp. -- Jon Zeeff zeeff@b-tech.ann-arbor.mi.us or b-tech!zeeff