gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (07/05/87)
ron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie) wrote: > Of course, there are USENET messages in the Data Libraries in > groups such as the BPFORUM of all places. I don't know what Data Libraries or BPFORUMs are but if they are on Compuserve, I wonder if they include any of the Usenet articles which contained my copyrights, specifically disallowing retransmission of my articles unless the retransmission was without restrictions. This technique successfully clarified the Stargate redistribution policy. I'd like to see if Compuserve is violating my copyrights, since they specifically do not allow their customers to redistribute material obtained from Compuserve [even though everyone does it all the time]. Stargate is filtering out any article containing the string "copyright" (presumably in upper or lower case); probably Compuserve can't afford to do this, since most of the sources they get are copyright, and in fact many of the encoded binaries they get are copyright and this test won't detect it. They'll have to stop stealing material, or change the policy, or be sued. I can afford it and I don't like thieves. (Richard Stallman calls them "software hoarders", but Compuserve is worse because they don't even write any of the stuff they hoard. They take it from public sources and try to make it private.) Can someone with a Compuserve account check for this? If they have a grep equivalent, just grep for "opyright" in some of the places where Usenet articles are appearing. Also, while browsing on Compuserve, if anyone happens to notice a copyrighted article (mine or somebody else's) that doesn't let you restrict redistribution, can you forward me a copy of it? Hmm, has any of the GNU software appeared on Compuserve? Distributing it to people with conditions imposed may be a violation of the Free Software Foundation's copyright. -- {dasys1,ncoast,well,sun,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@ingres.berkeley.edu Alt.all: the alternative radio of the Usenet. Contributions welcome - post 'em
ron@topaz.rutgers.edu.UUCP (07/09/87)
BPFORUM is the broadcast professionals forum. The article I noticed is the how to comment on FCC rules thing. The author may have forwarded it himself for all I know, I didn't look at it that carefully. I don't know where the MINIX group is, so I can't help you. Got a name? Generally, I think CompuServe is pretty sensitive about these things. The groups, while generally not premoderated as we know it in USENET-land, are each pretty heavily monitored by several "sysops" which usually read or checkover anything like that. No, they don't have grep, and even if I did, they have a LOT more stuff than USENET has, and I wouldn't even contemplate grepping all of our USENET distribution. -Ron
johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) (07/11/87)
All of the MINIX files on Compuserve have been removed from the public access file area on the IBM PC forum. These files were abstracted from articles on comp.os.minix by Tom Poindexter. I believe the files were removed due to questions about copyright and redistribution. Compuserve has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot be downloaded and redistributed. I find it hard to believe that they have any legal right to impose conditions on the redistribution of material that is in the public domain or copyrighted by third parties.
drw@cullvax.UUCP (07/14/87)
johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes: > I find it hard to believe that they > have any legal right to impose conditions on the redistribution of > material that is in the public domain or copyrighted by third parties. Well, since you as user are bound by whatever contract you have with Compuserve, Compuserve can restrict you in any way you both agree to. (I.e., check your contract with Compuserve.) Compuserve can't, of course, restrict third parties who aren't Compuserve customers, but then, they aren't downloading from Compuserve, are they? > Compuserve > has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot > be downloaded and redistributed. Not strange at all: Compuserve charges by connect-hour. If you download and make copies for 9 friends, Compuserve gets to charge for only one download. (And why are these articles posed to comp.emacs?) Dale
tsp@killer.UUCP (Tom Poindexter) (07/14/87)
In article <3529@well.UUCP>, johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes: > All of the MINIX files on Compuserve have been removed from the public > access file area on the IBM PC forum. These files were abstracted from > articles on comp.os.minix by Tom Poindexter. I believe the files were > removed due to questions about copyright and redistribution. Compuserve > has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot > be downloaded and redistributed. I find it hard to believe that they > have any legal right to impose conditions on the redistribution of > material that is in the public domain or copyrighted by third parties. Please let me share a note that I received from the IBM Net forums sysop, Don Watkins. I hope this will clear up the matter, and we can now focus discussion in this news group to more worthy subjects. Tom Poindexter ihnp4!killer!tsp 76117,1453 ------message follows------- #: 113664 (P) S10/SysOp Business (S) 10-Jul-87 08:19:09 Sb: MINIX files Fm: SysOp Don Watkins 76703,750 To: Tom Poindexter 76117,1453 (X) Tom - Thanks, but please allow me to clarify the policy on redistribution. There is no claim of copyright on individual files, those belong to the author, period. On items with no copyright there is no claim either. There is a "compilation copyright" on the whole shebang. In other words if you did a BRO *.*, printed it and offered the programs FOR SALE!! CS would probably write you a letter. The users agreement specifically precludes the resale of downloaded files. Between you and me this is probably unenforcable and PC-SIG and a thousand others do it routinely. There is NO restriction on further distribution by CS. This is a matter between the user and the holder of the copyright. If there's no restriction on the redistribution by the author, then it's your's to do with what you will. This is explained in far more detail and far better than I can do in the "rules of operation". I hope you'll take a minute and GO COPYRIGHT and see the area. At one period it was free, I don't know if it still is. Parenthetically it's funny, there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the CS copyright, which, in general, I feel is a reasonable attempt at dealing with the copyright of files in a forum as well as diverse services like Grolier's, OAG, PaperChase, etc. and that of XXXXX, which claims that by virtue of the free upload you have been "paid" for the file and it then becomes the exclusive property of XXXXX and they hold worldwide distribution rights to it. Bottom line; there is no claim of copyright to the Minix files, period. After downloading they may be freely distributed in accordance with the wishes of the author(s), if any. Thanks again for your hard work and understanding, I know your motives, as were mine, were to simply get the files out to as many interested users and the bulletin board network as possible. Please feel free to publically use this message as you wish, tho I would appreciate it if you would delete the reference to XXXXX. I don't think it's my place to explain their copyright, and quite frankly it not only looks like a cheap shot on my part, but it IS a cheap shot on my part <grin>. Don
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (07/15/87)
in article <1369@cullvax.UUCP>, drw@cullvax.UUCP (Dale Worley) says: > Xref: cbmvax comp.os.minix:1225 misc.legal:2027 comp.emacs:1382 > > johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes: >> I find it hard to believe that they >> have any legal right to impose conditions on the redistribution of >> material that is in the public domain or copyrighted by third parties. Back when I had company-sponsored Compuserve access, the SYSOPs in the Amiga forum explained Compuserve's claim. It seems, at least according to these folks, that Compuserve claims a group or collection copyright. Kind of like when Issac Asimov put together a group of short stories in a single book. He doesn't usurp the individual copyright of each story (though he could have an exclusive distribution agreement with some or all of the authors; Compuserve seems to have a few of these too), but if anyone tried to distribute a book with the same collection of short stories, he would have legal grounds to claim a violation of copyright. Similarly, Compuserve can't prohibit the further distribution of a copyrighted program. For instance, DiskSalv 1.0 (an Amiga program that I wrote) is available on Compuserve, even though it is copyrighted by ME. Compuserve can't claim any ownership of this program (at least I hope they don't, I don't believe that they'd have a legal leg to stand on if they did), but if a rival computer network were to download all of the AmigaForum's utilities library, including DiskSalv, and upload it to their equivalent data library, they would claim a copyright infringement. To my knowledge, this had never been legally tested. It could be very hard to prove that an entire program collection of freely redistributable programs was lifted in whole, since most likely every one of the programs is also available from a separate source. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The A2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Catch a wave and you're sittin' on top of the world" -Beach Boys
daveb@geac.UUCP (Dave Brown) (07/16/87)
In article <1369@cullvax.UUCP> drw@cullvax.UUCP (Dale Worley) writes: >Well, since you as user are bound by whatever contract you have with >Compuserve, Compuserve can restrict you in any way you both agree to. >(I.e., check your contract with Compuserve.) Compuserve can't, of >course, restrict third parties who aren't Compuserve customers, but >then, they aren't downloading from Compuserve, are they? Uh... wrong question, Dale. Try asking whether Compuserve can claim copyright on material placed in its hands without the express or implied approval of the owner of the original copyright. There are *several* other legal/philosophical question here not dealt with in an agreement between Compuserve and a customer (ie, use of a thing not owned by Compuserve). None of which I am going to try to resolve. Ask a lawyer-type person. >(And why are these articles posed to comp.emacs?) Historical (histerical?) accident... Gnu Emacs. --dave (philosopher, not lawyer) brown -- David (Collier-) Brown. | Computer Science Geac Computers International Inc., | loses its memory 350 Steelcase Road,Markham, Ontario, | (if not its mind) CANADA, L3R 1B3 (416) 475-0525 x3279 | every 6 months.
jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (07/16/87)
>johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes: >> Compuserve >> has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot >> be downloaded and redistributed. As a regular user of Compuserve, I know of no restrictions on redistribution of material downloaded from Compuserve that was not generated by Compuserve itself. This obviously includes all material uploaded by users of Compuserve. This is not only my opinion but also the opinon of the sysops of MACUS. Can anyone offer a quote from Compuserve that suggests that there are restrictions or is this all just hearsay? Jerry
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (07/17/87)
Compuserve policy is to require their users to obtain permission from
the copyright holder before redistributing anything.
Thus, if I upload something that I hold a copyright on, you can download
it as a Compuserve user. Compuserve does not want you to give away other
copies, however, unless I say that you can.
In the documentation for stuff that I upload, I include a notice giving
permission for redistribution, so that people don't have to go to the
trouble of asking.
--
Tim Smith, Knowledgian {sdcrdcf,seismo}!ism780c!timgrieggs@devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) (07/17/87)
In article <1147@csib.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >>johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes: >>> Compuserve >>> has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot >>> be downloaded and redistributed. >Can >anyone offer a quote from Compuserve that suggests that there are restrictions >or is this all just hearsay? I can not offer a quote at this instant, but the SysOps of the Atari newsgroups have repeatedly stated the restrictions over the years. If it is hearsay, it is at least consistent hearsay. The easiest way to satisfy your curiousity might be to G ATARI and ask. The next easiest way might be to ask Customer Service. This issue has surfaced from time to time in relationship to magazine stuff. Specifically, there is one Atari-related magazine that allowed you to freely pass along their published code. CI$ would not let it pass through. _john -- John T. Grieggs (Telos @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory) 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, Ca. 91109 M/S 301-260A (818) 354-0465 Uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!devvax!grieggs Arpa: ...devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.ARPA
hymie@dvm.UUCP (Hyman Rosen) (07/19/87)
In article <109@devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> grieggs@devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) writes: >In article <1147@csib.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >>>johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes: >>>> Compuserve >>>> has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot >>>> be downloaded and redistributed. >>Can >>anyone offer a quote from Compuserve that suggests that there are restrictions >>or is this all just hearsay? I quote from 'Service Agreement Terms' in the CompuServe Starter Kit: 6. Customer will not reproduce, sell, publish, or in any manner commercially exploit any information obtained through the Service or participate in or allow such reproduction, sale, publications or exploitation by any person. 7. The provisions of paragraphs 5 and 6 are for the benefit of CompuServe and its data suppliers; any such data supplier shall have the right to assert and/or to enforce such provisions directly on its own behalf. Obviously, this is intended to protect those suppliers that do NOT want their data redistributed freely. I don't know whether CompuServe objects to redistributing data when the supplier does want it spread about. -- - Hymie ...{decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!allegra!phri!orville!dvm!hymie
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (07/22/87)
In article <3529@well.UUCP> johnl@well.UUCP (John A. Limpert) writes:
< removed due to questions about copyright and redistribution. Compuserve
< has this strange notion that anything uploaded to their system cannot
< be downloaded and redistributed. I find it hard to believe that they
No they don't.
--
Tim Smith, Knowledgian {sdcrdcf,seismo}!ism780c!timtim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (07/22/87)
In article <1147@csib.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes:
< As a regular user of Compuserve, I know of no restrictions on redistribution
< of material downloaded from Compuserve that was not generated by Compuserve
< itself. This obviously includes all material uploaded by users of Compuserve.
< This is not only my opinion but also the opinon of the sysops of MACUS. Can
< anyone offer a quote from Compuserve that suggests that there are restrictions
< or is this all just hearsay?
It is all just hearsay. Compuserve published a statement explaining
exactly what their policy is. I uploaded it and posted it on Usenet
once before. If I still have a copy, I will post it again.
Since this comes up every six months or so, I am thinking of setting
up a crontab entry to post it every six months.
--
Tim Smith, Knowledgian {sdcrdcf,seismo}!ism780c!tim