m1rcd00@fed.FRB.GOV (Bob Drzyzgula) (07/15/88)
Here at the Federal Reserve Board, we have a number of senior and not so senior management type users that feel that having to learn a "complicated" syntax for an editor just to send and receive mail is an undue burden. The ideal situation would be if they could use our word processor as the editor, but that would be WordMarc, and WordMarc is just too weird about file names and temporary files and command syntax and other stuff to be either very functional or very user-proof in this application. We have been using MH as our primary user-mail interface, and they don't like that either -- no pretty blue windows with cute menus popping up (these people see all that glitzy stuff that IBM PCs do and get all jealous) :-). I can deal with the menu problem with a front end on MH, or by maybe using elm once that stabilizes. But the editor problem is harder. The last thing I need is a project to write a new editor. I keep thinking that the Rand editor e would be the answer, but then I worry about the user that all of a sudden wants to send something with tabs in it (I don't know, a Makefile or something). Emacs (in it's native state) and vi are considered "too complex" by these users, and ex and ed are of course out of the question. One thing I thought of was to come up with a limited set of key bindings for emacs based on what the function keys generate on our vt220 clones. Of course this would mean that I would finally be forced to learn emacs, but life is sometimes hard :-) So I invite discussion on this. Does anyone know of a deathly simple, entirely intuitive, full screen editor that will work on vt220 terminals, and maybe do function keys and stuff, that might satisfy these users? Has anyone done what I described with emacs? -- Bob Drzyzgula Federal Reserve Board, Washington, DC, 20551; uunet!fed!rcd
bch@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Byron C. Howes) (07/25/88)
In article <215@fed.FRB.GOV> m1rcd00@fed.FRB.GOV (Bob Drzyzgula) writes: > Here at the Federal Reserve Board, we have a number of senior and >not so senior management type users that feel that having to learn >a "complicated" syntax for an editor just to send and receive mail >is an undue burden. > Emacs (in it's native state) and vi are considered "too complex" >by these users, and ex and ed are of course out of the question. >One thing I thought of was to come up with a limited set of key >bindings for emacs based on what the function keys generate on our >vt220 clones. > So I invite discussion on this. Does anyone know of a deathly >simple, entirely intuitive, full screen editor that will work on >vt220 terminals, and maybe do function keys and stuff, that might >satisfy these users? Has anyone done what I described with emacs? At UNC-ECS we have essentially the same problem. Our site is essentially a mail drop for a large number (600+) novice users. Not only are the standard unix editors considered non-intuitive, too complex or just plain "user-antagonistic" but most of our users are not happy with the Berkeley/mailx user agent. Having gone a number of iterations on this we have settled on a customized emacs with an on-screen menu and bindings to vt100 or the procomm vt100 emulation terminal. This runs behind Dave Taylor's elm mail handler -- judged useful because it can be made to present a menu of the most frequently used commands to the user. While we are in a testing phase and are still iterating to some kind of useable mail interface for novice users, the folks we have turned lose on this combination seem to have found it useful for their needs. We are certainly interested in hearing how other sites have tackled the mail/editor problem for novice users. -- Byron C. Howes UNC Educational Computing Service bch@ecsvax.uncecs.edu | bch@ecsvax.uucp | bch@ecsvax.bitnet
werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (07/26/88)
COLUMBIA-folks ported the TOPS-20 mailer MM to Unix and, while using
whatever editing-programs you may have available on your machine,
the intuitive simple command interface and online help has any other
mailer beat that I know of (I don't care for a "religious" war, please)
I, currently, run a Beta-version which is available for FTP from site
cunixc.cc.columbia.edu, or write to BUG-MM@COLUMBIA.EDU ...
--
-------------------->PREFERED-RETURN-ADDRESS-FOLLOWS<---------------------
(INTERNET) werner%rascal.ics.utexas.edu@cs.utexas.edu
(DIRECT) werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Internet: 128.83.144.1)
(UUCP) ...{backbone-sites}!cs.utexas.edu!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!wernerelliott@yosemite.steinmetz (07/26/88)
While I would certainly not recommend its use for much else, the
Michigan Terminal Systems operating system has an absolutely wonderful
mail system called $MESSAGESYSTEM. I have yet to find anything that
comes close in terms of functionality and ease of learning. Things
like "retrieve outgoing status to=fred", if you want to see if fred
has read your mail yet, and the ability to modify or destroy messages
you have already posted, and being able to set notices that people see
as soon as they initiate a message to you, are very nice. (Of course,
you can abbreviate commands and make typos, and it will almost always
get it right. Though if you spell "retrieve" wrong it tells you the
"I before E" rule and tsk tsks...)
Clearly much of this doesn't work in a network environment, but the
command interface could, as could the userdirectory database, which
lets you mail to people by name (and tells you near-matches if you
spell a name wrong; "5 names almost matched 'Jim Elliot'. Do you mean
'Jim Elliott'?")
Not that this is too useful to anyone because there are about eight
MTS sites in the world today...
. . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . ... . .
Jim Elliott / ...!seismo!uunet!steinmetz!crd!elliott
/ userE2U7@rpitsmts.BITNET
"Don't look, son, it's / Jim_Elliott%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu [school]
a secular humanist!" / (or) elliott@ge-crd.arpa [work]
. . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . ... . .grindef@chianti.cc.umich.edu (Wes Craig) (07/28/88)
> ... the > Michigan Terminal Systems operating system has an absolutely wonderful > mail system called $MESSAGESYSTEM. Huh? Are you talking about the michigan terminal system (mts) developed at the university of michigan computing center in Ann Arbor? > I have yet to find anything that > comes close in terms of functionality and ease of learning. Of course it's easy to learn: things are always easy to learn when there's only a very small number of things that you can do. > Things > like "retrieve outgoing status to=fred", if you want to see if fred > has read your mail yet, and the ability to modify or destroy messages > you have already posted, and being able to set notices that people see > as soon as they initiate a message to you, are very nice. True, as you can in any megalithic system such as a mainframe. But these thing could also be done in a distributed fashion (and with a better inteface). > (Of course, > you can abbreviate commands and make typos, and it will almost always > get it right. Though if you spell "retrieve" wrong it tells you the > "I before E" rule and tsk tsks...) Well, the one here doesn't do that, but I understand that it used to a bit more friendly, in that way. > Clearly much of this doesn't work in a network environment, Not so, but it's true that the MTS implementation of those features won't work well in a networked environment. And one could only be flamed a little in asking "If it doesn't work in a network, what's it good for?" The fact is, it could be done in a network, (and there are people working on doing it a network), but the $MESSAGESYSTEM writers were too short sighted (or they just didn't care) to write code that could be easily ported to a networked environment. > but the > command interface could, How could you suggest such a thing?! > as could the userdirectory database, which > lets you mail to people by name (and tells you near-matches if you > spell a name wrong; "5 names almost matched 'Jim Elliot'. Do you mean > 'Jim Elliott'?") Maybe your version is a better implementation, but our's is not what I'd call easy to use. Like the only way to stop one of those "Do you mean `Jim Elliot'? " is to type "cancel" in its entirety. Granted, tho, it would be nice if you could use soundex to send your mail. > . . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . ... . . > > Jim Elliott / ...!seismo!uunet!steinmetz!crd!elliott > / userE2U7@rpitsmts.BITNET > "Don't look, son, it's / Jim_Elliott%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu [school] > a secular humanist!" / (or) elliott@ge-crd.arpa [work] > . . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . ... . . ______________________________________________________________________ Wes Craig grindef@chianti.cc.umich.edu Wes_Craig@{um,ub}.cc.umich.edu ...!uunet!umix!grindef ______________________________________________________________________
jaa@mrmarx.UUCP (Jerry Abramson) (07/28/88)
Part of the confusion here regarding the MTS system at RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) is that the correct name of the operating system is MTS/XA (Extended Architecture) Which contains a number of significant modifications to the original MTS system developed at Michigan.
lyndon@ncc.Nexus.CA (Lyndon Nerenberg) (07/29/88)
In article <11657@steinmetz.ge.com> elliott@yosemite.steinmetz.ge.com () writes: >While I would certainly not recommend its use for much else, the >Michigan Terminal Systems operating system has an absolutely wonderful >mail system called $MESSAGESYSTEM. They don't call it $MESS for nothing... >I have yet to find anything that >comes close in terms of functionality and ease of learning. Things >like "retrieve outgoing status to=fred", if you want to see if fred >has read your mail yet, Which is twice as verbose as saying "finger fred" to see if he's read his mail lately. >Clearly much of this doesn't work in a network environment, Which is kind of silly when you consider most people send mail over networks. >lets you mail to people by name (and tells you near-matches if you >spell a name wrong; "5 names almost matched 'Jim Elliot'. Do you mean >'Jim Elliott'?") Except that when there are five Jim Elliotts, you cannot display the data on each user without backing out and starting over again to see the second, third, fourth, and fifth user (they *might* have fixed this by now, although it was the case at on UALTAMTS as of a few months ago). $MESS wins the braindead mailer award. Have you ever looked at some of the addresses it generates??? (Well, part of this is due to BITNET braindamage) -- VE6BBM {alberta,pyramid,uunet}!ncc!lyndon lyndon@Nexus.CA
elliott@yosemite.steinmetz (07/30/88)
In article <10356@ncc.Nexus.CA> lyndon@ncc.nexus.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: [shocked reactions to my praise of $MESSAGESYSTEM] >>Things >>like "retrieve outgoing status to=fred", if you want to see if fred >>has read your mail yet, >Which is twice as verbose as saying "finger fred" to see if he's read >his mail lately. But fingering someone is useless because you can not be sure they have seen a particular message. Anyway, I didn't expect to find MTSphobes on the Net. :) I can understand it at RPI, where many students resent not having an alternative to MTS; I would not want it as my ONLY operating system. But it is fun to have around, and definitely does have some good ideas. That's all I'll say on the subject now... Especially in these rather inappropriate groups. . . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . ... . . Jim Elliott / ...!seismo!uunet!steinmetz!crd!elliott / userE2U7@rpitsmts.BITNET "Don't look, son, it's / Jim_Elliott%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu [school] a secular humanist!" / (or) elliott@ge-crd.arpa [work] . . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . ... . .