pwl@tc.fluke.COM (Paul Lutt) (08/24/88)
I have been asked by one of our users to try to obtain a "simple to
learn and use" visual text editor. He considers vi and emacs to be
much too complicated for the casual user. He also considers the PC-
based WordPerfect to be too complicated.
If this particular user had a Sun workstation, I would suggest
something like Sun's textedit tool. However, the user is stuck with a
VT100 style terminal.
Possible solutions include an emacs profile that provides access to the
most basic functions only. Perhaps a WordStar mapping. We have both
Unipress emacs and GNUemacs available.
If you have had the same sort of request and have found a reasonable
solution, I would sure like to hear about it.
As background, the target systems would be Vax 11/780s running Mt. Xinu
MORE/bsd and Sun workstations running SunOS 3.5.2 and SunOS 4.0.
Please mail any replies to me direct and I will pass them along. Thank
you.
--
Paul Lutt
Domain: pwl@tc.fluke.COM
Voice: +1 206 356 5059
UUCP: {uw-beaver,microsof,sun}!fluke!pwl
Snail: John Fluke Mfg. Co. / P.O. Box C9090 / Everett WA 98206gaynor@athos.rutgers.edu (Silver) (08/24/88)
pwl@tc.fluke.COM (Paul Lutt) writes: > He considers ... emacs to be much too complicated for the casual user. This is ridiculous, of course, at least for GNU. It does what it's programmed to do, sporting a full-fledged lisp under that pretty exterior. If the user thinks it's complicated, then hack things out. Maybe start a feature-a-week club, and show the user neat tricks on a weekly basis. Regards, [Ag] gaynor@rutgers.edu
donr@shark.TEK.COM (Don Riss) (08/24/88)
In article <4912@fluke.COM> pwl@tc.fluke.COM (Paul Lutt) writes: >I have been asked by one of our users to try to obtain a "simple to >learn and use" visual text editor. He considers vi and emacs to be >much too complicated for the casual user. He also considers the PC- >based WordPerfect to be too complicated. > Has anyone written or considered writing a UCSD-Pascal-like editor for VAX or SUN or whatever? The UCSD editor will do a lot of things, some of them the hard way, but its main advantage seems to be that moderately intelligent seventh-graders can (and have) learned it quite easily. An aside - I've got to fix my .cshrc - it threw me into (yuk-ptui) vi to write this note. I've just found out that J is the way you delete a CRLF. Now that's not intuitively obvious to the casual observer... but may make some wierd sort of sense to the computer scientist who believes that control-J = LF (sometimes) DISCALIMER::NOBODY, BUT NOBODY WANTS THESE IDEAS BUT ME, & I'M NOT SURE ABOUT ME.
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (08/25/88)
In article <4912@fluke.COM> pwl@tc.fluke.COM (Paul Lutt) writes: | Possible solutions include an emacs profile that provides access to the | most basic functions only. Perhaps a WordStar mapping. We have both | Unipress emacs and GNUemacs available. If you go with MicroEMACS it will run on the PC and mainframe, too. Your idea of a limited key mapping is a good one, which I know many people have used with success. MicroEMACS has a restricted mode which will prevent remapping keys, by accident or intent. I believe MicroGNU runs on a PC, too, but I haven't seen the new version (called mg) running yet, so that's rumor. Good luck with your project, and remember that stickon labels for the keys can reduce the learning curve by a good bit. We use them because they are cheaper than answering the phone. Casual users seem to have zero transfer of editing commands into long term memory, so labels replace learning. -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
karish@denali.stanford.edu (Chuck Karish) (08/25/88)
In article <2557@shark.TEK.COM> donr@shark.TEK.COM (Don Riss) writes:
<An aside - I've got to fix my .cshrc - it threw me into (yuk-ptui) vi
<to write this note. I've just found out that J is the way you delete
<a CRLF. Now that's not intuitively obvious to the casual observer...
<but may make some wierd sort of sense to the computer scientist who
<believes that control-J = LF (sometimes)
J is used to Join two lines. It adds a space, if necessary, to keep
from running two words together.
Chuck Karish ARPA: karish@denali.stanford.edu
BITNET: karish%denali@forsythe.stanford.edu
UUCP: {decvax,hplabs!hpda}!mindcrf!karish
USPS: 1825 California St. #5 Mountain View, CA 94041lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (08/25/88)
From article <2557@shark.TEK.COM>, by donr@shark.TEK.COM (Don Riss): " Has anyone written or considered writing a UCSD-Pascal-like editor for " VAX or SUN or whatever? The UCSD editor will do a lot of things, some " of them the hard way, but its main advantage seems to be that moderately " intelligent seventh-graders can (and have) learned it quite easily. The UCSD editor is the easiest to learn I've ever used. I would also like to have a similar editor available on unix. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
dch@cci632.UUCP (David C. Howland) (08/26/88)
In article <4912@fluke.COM> pwl@tc.fluke.COM (Paul Lutt) writes: >I have been asked by one of our users to try to obtain a "simple to >learn and use" visual text editor. He considers vi and emacs to be >much too complicated for the casual user. He also considers the PC- >based WordPerfect to be too complicated. One the the engineers here wrote an "easy-mode" for GNUemacs. Instead of taking functionally out of emacs easy-mode hides it. To get back to full Emacs one types C-cC-c. Easy-mode uses soft keys and a display menu. On the menu are simple functions such as find-file and save-buffer. This is an example display menu. (much prettier than this and reverse video). ______________________ ______________________________ _______________________ |find| save |switch | | grep| next | shell|compare | | other |two | next| |file| buffer|buffer | | | error| |window | | window|windows| menu| ---------------------- ------------------------------ ----------------------- The terminal we use in house has two lines at the top of the terminal that are not accessible to emacs normally. On these two lines are the display menu. By typing "next menu" (last entry on the example line above) pops up the next menu and binds the soft keys to the currently displayed menu. Shifted next menu takes you back one menu. The menus are circular so hitting next menu will eventuality take you back to the menu you are currently on. To add functionality to easy-mode requires a table change to allow the new function and to add/update the menus. Easy-mode is soooo easy even a ....... could figure it out! Goal in life: The eradication of vi! :-)
irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) (08/26/88)
In article <2557@shark.TEK.COM> donr@shark.TEK.COM (Don Riss) writes: >VAX or SUN or whatever? The UCSD editor will do a lot of things, some >of them the hard way, but its main advantage seems to be that moderately >intelligent seventh-graders can (and have) learned it quite easily. > >An aside - I've got to fix my .cshrc - it threw me into (yuk-ptui) vi >to write this note. I've just found out that J is the way you delete >a CRLF. Now that's not intuitively obvious to the casual observer... The vi "J" stands for Join lines. In fact ALL vi commands and operators are single letter mnemonics! (a=Append, b=Back, c=Change, d=Delete, f=Find, G=Go to, H=Home, i=Insert, J=Join, L=Last line, M=Middle line, n=Next, o=Open a new line, p=Put back from buffer, r=Replace, s=Substitute, t=To, u=Undo, w=Word, x=CROSS out, y=Yank into buffer, z=set Zone). This my eighth-grader son learnt after a few minutes of 'vi' wordprocessing for a school project... He is (at least) moderately intelligent. -Bo -- >>> Bo Thide', Swedish Institute of Space Physics, S-755 90 Uppsala, Sweden <<< Phone (+46) 18-300020. Telex: 76036 (IRFUPP S). UUCP: ..enea!kuling!irfu!bt
charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) (08/28/88)
>In article <2557@shark.TEK.COM> donr@shark.TEK.COM (Don Riss) writes: >>An aside - I've got to fix my .cshrc - it threw me into (yuk-ptui) vi >>to write this note. I've just found out that J is the way you delete >>a CRLF. Now that's not intuitively obvious to the casual observer... >The vi "J" stands for Join lines. In fact ALL vi commands and operators >are single letter mnemonics! (a=Append, b=Back, c=Change, d=Delete, f=Find, ... >This my eighth-grader son learnt after a few minutes of 'vi' wordprocessing >for a school project... He is (at least) moderately intelligent. > Bo Thide', Swedish Institute of Space Physics It looks like you picked the easy ones. Would you care to explain what the four following are supposed to stand for? k previous-line keep moving back? :-{ j next-line jump forward? :-/ l forward-character lunge? or launch? :-) h backward-character harken back? :-] Your comment about intelligence is unnecessary and uncalled for. Charles Brown charles%hpcvca@hplabs.hp.com Not representing my employer.
oz@yunexus.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) (08/28/88)
In article <..@athos.rutgers.edu> gaynor@athos.rutgers.edu (Silver) writes: >pwl@tc.fluke.COM (Paul Lutt) writes: >> He considers ... emacs to be much too complicated for the casual user. > >... Maybe start a feature-a-week >club, and show the user neat tricks on a weekly basis. Hehee.. that should take about a decade or so to complete huh ?? That is, assuming a "feature-frozen" gnu-emacs :-) (you missed your smiley) oz -- Crud that is not paged | Usenet: ...!utzoo!yunexus!oz is still crud. | ...uunet!mnetor!yunexus!oz andrew@alice | Bitnet: oz@[yulibra|yuyetti] | Phonet: +1 416 736-5257x3976
james@bigtex.uucp (James Van Artsdalen) (08/28/88)
In article <809@kuling.UUCP>, irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) wrote: > In fact ALL vi commands and operators are single letter mnemonics! ZZ > This my eighth-grader son learnt after a few minutes of 'vi' wordprocessing > for a school project... He is (at least) moderately intelligent. My objection to vi is not the command set, but the seemingly infinite number of visually indistinguishable modes. emacs is also modal, but modes are visually distinguishable. emacs also doesn't require that you switch modes so often either. -- James R. Van Artsdalen ...!uunet!utastro!bigtex!james "Live Free or Die" Home: 512-346-2444 Work: 328-0282; 110 Wild Basin Rd. Ste #230, Austin TX 78746
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (08/29/88)
In article <7105@bigtex.uucp>, james@bigtex.uucp (James Van Artsdalen) writes: # In article <809@kuling.UUCP>, irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) wrote: # > In fact ALL vi commands and operators are single letter mnemonics! # # ZZ This really stands for, "I'm so tired of editing I'm about to fall asleep" :-). Seriously, you don't have to use ZZ, it's just another way of writing off and quitting. You want to stay mnemonic, use :wq (ru ii tt e) # My objection to vi is not the command set, but the seemingly infinite # number of visually indistinguishable modes. emacs is also modal, but # modes are visually distinguishable. emacs also doesn't require that # you switch modes so often either. This doesn't mean much unless you are in the habit of beginning a command, walking away from the terminal for awhile, then coming back and resuming right where you left off. BTW you can abort most anything in vi, even if commands are buffered up, using the DEL (or whatever your INTR character is) key. Typing ESC twice will always get you back to a known mode. That's why I like vi -- I always know how to "get back to Kansas" if something unexpected and weird happens, without having to kill the session. Also, vi respects terminal software flow control which over some networks and on some machines is needed at high speeds (e.g. 38400 baud on a Tek 4107). I tried emacs with such a terminal and it prompted me "Search:" when it saw the ^S after a screen repaint. Rebinding the ^S and ^Q got rid of that, but sometimes the terminal buffer overflowed. Yuckola. -- |------------Dan Levy------------| THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED HEREIN ARE MINE ONLY | Bell Labs Area 61 (R.I.P., TTY)| AND ARE NOT TO BE IMPUTED TO AT&T. | Skokie, Illinois | |-----Path: att!ttbcad!levy-----|
irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) (08/29/88)
In article <7105@bigtex.uucp> james@bigtex.UUCP (James Van Artsdalen) writes: >My objection to vi is not the command set, but the seemingly infinite Do ":set showmode" and see the vi mode you're in. Another idea: change your termcap/terminfo such that you change your cursor type in input mode. Works on vt200 compatibles. -- >>> Bo Thide', Swedish Institute of Space Physics, S-755 90 Uppsala, Sweden <<< Phone (+46) 18-300020. Telex: 76036 (IRFUPP S). UUCP: ..enea!kuling!irfu!bt
irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) (08/29/88)
In article <640005@hpcvca.HP.COM> charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) writes: > >It looks like you picked the easy ones. Would you care to explain >what the four following are supposed to stand for? > k previous-line keep moving back? :-{ > j next-line jump forward? :-/ > l forward-character lunge? or launch? :-) > h backward-character harken back? :-] These keys are the ones which you use as arrow keys on certain (older) terminals (ADM?). On newer terminals you use the normal arrow keys, of course. > >Your comment about intelligence is unnecessary and uncalled for. Sorry. No offence meant. I only tried to give a funny comment on a comment on moderate intelligence in the original posting. -Bo PS. Also the CTRL sequences are mnemonic: ^B=Back one page, ^F=Forward one page, ^D=Scroll down, ^U=Scroll up, ^E=Expose one more line, ^N=Next line (EMACS!), ^P=Previous line (EMACS!) and so on. Are there any more "easy ones" to pick? -- >>> Bo Thide', Swedish Institute of Space Physics, S-755 90 Uppsala, Sweden <<< Phone (+46) 18-300020. Telex: 76036 (IRFUPP S). UUCP: ..enea!kuling!irfu!bt
les@chinet.UUCP (Leslie Mikesell) (08/29/88)
In article <7105@bigtex.uucp> james@bigtex.UUCP (James Van Artsdalen) writes: >My objection to vi is not the command set, but the seemingly infinite >number of visually indistinguishable modes. emacs is also modal, but >modes are visually distinguishable. emacs also doesn't require that >you switch modes so often either. If you would prepend an ESC to all of the vi commands you would find that it is no longer any more "moded" than any other editor, except perhaps those that do not have any full screen mode. Of course the command set would then be more awkward to type than the usual method of hitting ESC only when needed (or when you aren't sure..). If you just want the mode to be visually distinguishable, why not set showmode? Les Mikesell
eichin@ATHENA.MIT.EDU ("Mark W. Eichin") (08/30/88)
CB>Date: 28 Aug 88 00:23:36 GMT
CB>From: Charles Brown <hp-pcd!hpcvca!charles@hplabs.hp.com>
CB>It looks like you picked the easy ones. Would you care to explain
CB>what the four following are supposed to stand for?
CB> k previous-line keep moving back? :-{
CB> j next-line jump forward? :-/
CB> l forward-character lunge? or launch? :-)
CB> h backward-character harken back? :-]
CB> Charles Brown charles%hpcvca@hplabs.hp.com
hjkl are the Rogue and larn adventure game control sequences. I
thought it was common knowledge that vi is the Rogue training
program... :-) :-) :-)
Mark Eichin
<eichin@athena.mit.edu>
SIPB Member & Project Athena ``Watchmaker'' roger@homxc.UUCP (Another Technical Editor) (08/30/88)
In article <6419@chinet.UUCP>, les@chinet.UUCP (Leslie Mikesell) writes: | | If you would prepend an ESC to all of the vi commands you would find that | it is no longer any more "moded" than any other editor, except perhaps | those that do not have any full screen mode. Of course the command set | would then be more awkward to type than the usual method of hitting ESC | only when needed (or when you aren't sure..). If you just want the mode | to be visually distinguishable, why not set showmode? | | Les Mikesell On my machine, showmode often doesn't get around to displaying the active mode until well after the first keystroke. By then, the damage is done. Roger Tait ..ihnp4!homxc!roger (201) 949-1136 AT&T Bell Labs Technical Publications Holmdel, NJ (-; (-; "Where never is heard a discouraging word, and the skies are not cloudy all day." :-) :-)
rbj@nav.icst.nbs.GOV (Root Boy Jim) (08/31/88)
From: Charles Brown <hp-pcd!hpcvca!charles@hplabs.hp.com>
It looks like you picked the easy ones. Would you care to explain
what the four following are supposed to stand for?
k previous-line keep moving back? :-{
j next-line jump forward? :-/
l forward-character lunge? or launch? :-)
h backward-character harken back? :-]
Those who do not understand history are condemned to repeat it. It
seems that one of the first crt's that ken and dmr came across was an
adm-3a. It had arrows above these keys, and the control versions of those
keys performed left, down, up, and rite cursor motion. UNIX games like
like snake, rogue, hack, and robots use these keys for motion commands.
The Televideo uses the same on its arrow keys, except ^v instead of ^j.
(Root Boy) Jim Cottrell <rbj@icst-cmr.arpa>
National Bureau of Standards
Flamer's Hotline: (301) 975-5688
The opinions expressed are solely my own
and do not reflect NBS policy or agreement
Careful with that VAX Eugene!ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (08/31/88)
In article <813@kuling.UUCP> irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) writes: >Do ":set showmode" and see the vi mode you're in. Which version of VIle is that? I have "Version 3.7, 6/7/85" running under SunOS 3.2, and it says "showmode: No such option" when I try that.
ked@garnet.berkeley.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) (08/31/88)
In article <330@quintus.UUCP> ok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >In article <813@kuling.UUCP> irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) writes: >>Do ":set showmode" and see the vi mode you're in. > >Which version of VIle is that? I have "Version 3.7, 6/7/85" running >under SunOS 3.2, and it says "showmode: No such option" when I try that. What is this news group for? In six months of reading it, I would guess that at least sixty and perhaps eighty percent of the postings are vi vs emacs flames. These discussions remind of teenagers arguing (back in my high school days) the merits of Fords vs Chevrolets. In retrospect, it is clear both were sleds. How about putting some effort in writing a real editor - which in my case means the ability to handle Japanese, Chinese, and Korean, in addition to the usual collection of simple-minded northern European languages? If posters can't do that, perhaps there could be a contest for a witless pun to match VIle. I would start the round with emacsulator.... E H. Kinmonth, Hist. Dept., Univ. of Ca., Davis Davis, Ca. 95616 916-752-1636/0776 Disclaimer: This is AmeriKa! Who needs a disclaimer! Internet: ehkinmonth@ucdavis.edu cck@deneb.ucdavis.edu BITNET: ehkinmonth@ucdavis UUCP: {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!ehkinmonth {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cck
ked@garnet.berkeley.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) (08/31/88)
In article <330@quintus.UUCP> ok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >In article <813@kuling.UUCP> irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) writes: >>Do ":set showmode" and see the vi mode you're in. > >Which version of VIle is that? I have "Version 3.7, 6/7/85" running >under SunOS 3.2, and it says "showmode: No such option" when I try that. What is this news group for? In six months of reading it, I would guess that at least sixty and perhaps eighty percent of the postings are vi vs emacs flames. These discussions remind of teenagers arguing (back in my high school days) the merits of Fords vs Chevrolets. In retrospect, it is clear both were sleds. How about putting some effort in writing a real editor - which in my case means the ability to handle Japanese, Chinese, and Korean, in addition to the usual collection of simple-minded northern European languages? If posters can't do that, perhaps there could be a contest for a witless pun to match VIle. I would start the round with emacsulator.... E H. Kinmonth, Hist. Dept., Univ. of Ca., Davis Davis, Ca. 95616 916-752-1636/0776 Disclaimer: This is AmeriKa! Who needs a disclaimer! Internet: ehkinmonth@ucdavis.edu cck@deneb.ucdavis.edu BITNET: ehkinmonth@ucdavis UUCP: {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!ehkinmonth {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cck #! r
dgy@sigmast.UUCP (Dave Yearke) (09/01/88)
In article <814@kuling.UUCP> irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) writes: =In article <640005@hpcvca.HP.COM> charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) writes: => =>It looks like you picked the easy ones. Would you care to explain =>what the four following are supposed to stand for? => k previous-line keep moving back? :-{ => j next-line jump forward? :-/ => l forward-character lunge? or launch? :-) => h backward-character harken back? :-] =These keys are the ones which you use as arrow keys on =certain (older) terminals (ADM?). On newer terminals you use =the normal arrow keys, of course. Mnemonics issues aside, I find the Emacs cursor keys very difficult to type. The nice thing about vi's cursor keys is that your fingers do not have to leave the home row. Using the arrow keys slows me down even more, as I prefer to keep my fingers near the home row. Does anyone have "easier" mappings for the Emacs keys? BTW, has anyone thought about how using either editor would be easier/ more difficult on a Dvorak keyboard? Vi would be strange ... -- Dave Yearke, Sigma Systems Technology, Inc. 5813 Main St, Williamsville, NY 14221 ...!sunybcs!sigmast!dgy
gore@eecs.nwu.edu (Jacob Gore) (09/01/88)
In article <640005@hpcvca.HP.COM> charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) writes: >... Would you care to explain >what the four following are supposed to stand for? > k previous-line keep moving back? :-{ > j next-line jump forward? :-/ > l forward-character lunge? or launch? :-) > h backward-character harken back? :-] / comp.emacs / irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) / Aug 29, 1988 / >These keys are the ones which you use as arrow keys on >certain (older) terminals (ADM?). On newer terminals you use >the normal arrow keys, of course. Back in 1980, a friend of mine and I were writing our own screen editor. We were not familiar with vi then (or rogue, or any of those...). We chose ^h, ^j, ^k, ^l to mean left, down, up, right. Why? Well, ^h was already backspace, ^j was already linefeed, so we chose the other too for symmetry. Jacob Gore Gore@EECS.NWU.Edu Northwestern Univ., EECS Dept. {oddjob,gargoyle,att}!nucsrl!gore
ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (09/01/88)
In article <13763@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> ked@garnet.berkeley.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) writes: >In article <330@quintus.UUCP> ok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >>In article <813@kuling.UUCP> irf@kuling.UUCP (Bo Thide) writes: >>>Do ":set showmode" and see the vi mode you're in. >> >>Which version of VIle is that? I have "Version 3.7, 6/7/85" running >>under SunOS 3.2, and it says "showmode: No such option" when I try that. > >What is this news group for? Well, my posting was sent under the apparently mistaken assumption that it was a place where serious questions might get answers. Why assume that all ekenames are insults? >How about putting some effort in writing a real editor - which in >my case means the ability to handle Japanese, Chinese, and >Korean, in addition to the usual collection of simple-minded >northern European languages? If Kinmouth cares to produce something instead of moaning, I'll be delighted to applaud him. (Note that dpANS C has "wchar_t" and that V.3 is starting to move in the direction of "internationalisation".) In the meantime, how about someone answering the question?
wayne@teemc.UUCP (//ichael R. //ayne) (09/01/88)
Does anyone know if screen has been ported to any maches other than Cromemco and Fortune? This has to be one of the world's simplest editors to teach someone. I ask primarily for nostalgic reasons but it might solve other people's problems also. /\/\ \/\/ -- Michael R. Wayne --- TMC & Associates --- wayne@teemc.uucp INTERNET: wayne%teemc.uucp@umix.cc.umich.edu uunet!umix!teemc!wayne
rpw3@amdcad.AMD.COM (Rob Warnock) (09/02/88)
In article <4435@teemc.UUCP> wayne@teemc.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: +--------------- | Does anyone know if screen has been ported to any maches other than | Cromemco and Fortune? This has to be one of the world's simplest editors to | teach someone. I ask primarily for nostalgic reasons but it might solve | other people's problems also. +--------------- "Screen" was certainly easy to use! Secretaries and field service guys could use it with just a few minutes practice. The service people in particular liked to carry floppies with "screen" around with them on calls, so they'd always have access to an editor they could use. You didn't have to remember very much, as there was a command_prompt line at the top that told you what you could do at any point. It was written by Bob Glossman when he was at Fortune Systems, based on the ideas but not the code of the version of "screen" he wrote at Cromemco. That, in turn, was based on the look/feel of the UCSD Pascal editor. Bob is currently V.P.Engineering at Bell Technologies. You might ask him whatever happened to "screen". Rob Warnock Systems Architecture Consultant UUCP: {amdcad,fortune,sun}!redwood!rpw3 ATTmail: !rpw3 DDD: (415)572-2607 USPS: 627 26th Ave, San Mateo, CA 94403