dan-hankins@cup.portal.com (Daniel B Hankins) (04/22/89)
In article <11314@bcsaic.UUCP> ray@bcsaic.UUCP (Ray Allis) writes: >Nope. You assumed the thing you're arguing for. You said "If there were >a way to eat the simulated meal, I could eat the simulated meal." Even >with that, you didn't succeed in eating the simulation, you cleverly >created *real* light rays, scent molecules and hand molecules from the >simulation and ate *them*. You're getting closer. In any case, to someone who experiences it, it is a difference that makes no difference. To him, the simulated meal is a real meal. Now, to consider 'simulated' machine intelligence (actually, intelligence _implemented_ on a machine). I do not succeed in communicating with the simulation, I cleverly create *real* textual output, voice output and arm movements from the simulation and communicate with *them*. If one can't tell the difference between a communication from a simulated sentient being in a box (the box is important) and a 'real' sentient being in a box, then what important difference is there? >Once the simulation is constructed, you can exhaustively work out all the >internal interactions, implications and entailments of the system of >assertions and interrelationships, but that's all you get! There is >nothing coming out that you didn't put in. Beg to differ. If the system interacts with its environment what comes out is what you + environment 'put in'. Nothing comes out of any _closed_ system that someone didn't put in. I'm certainly not proposing any AI system built from scratch and springing, as it were, from my forehead fully grown and with full knowledge. You can't do that unless you can exhaustively read the state of an existing brain at some instant and duplicate it in the program. That looks to be impractical for just about forever. The protons will probably begin decaying before we have that capability. Rather, one gives the system self-organizing capabilities, programs _no_ knowledge into it, except perhaps basics like pain, pleasure and so on (like an infant), and puts it into a learning environment. Then lots of things come out that I didn't put in, except as capabilities. The interesting thing about self-organizing systems is that one of the capabilities you give them is to gain more capabilities. Dan Hankins Why did the chicken cross the Moebius strip?
fn@jung.harlqn.uucp (Mr Beeblebrox) (04/25/89)
There has been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a simulation of a meal could be good enough to be in effect a meal, or thereabouts. As with many other simulations how well the simulation fits what it is simulating depends upon the observers' (that's us) view of the simulation. Lets take two examples, The Classic Hurricane Simulation In England we have very few hurricanes therefore for us to 'know that a hurricane has happened, probably elsewhere' we don't need to get wet but we would expect to see our favorite newsreader telling us about the hurricane and we would expect to see some pictures, film etc. These events could be 'simulated' although such effort would probably have to be a major conspiracy. Howerver the real hurricane nedd not happen for *US* (ie. in the UK/Europe) to believe that it did happen. In fact, the only reason why we should dispute the 'evidence' is if counter-evidence suffexted that we do so. The Simulated Meal Syndrome Similar to the hurricane, imagine a computer systemn that could simulate not the meal itself (pictures etc) but can generate all the right signals such that a being, pluged into the system 'experiences' all the signals associated with the eating of a meal (a hypnotist can do a similar thing but relies on accurate description and existing patient memories). The computer system in question would have to know how to generate all the correct sensations and overpower the memory of having been connected to a machine. I admit that these are quite contrived however the point still remains that all simulations be they of animate or inanimate objects rely on their accuracy to succeed and in many cases the accuracy is determined by their expected behaviour where it is *US* who are expecting Phil -- Hye!------------------------------------------------------ Phil (Mr Beeblebrox) Knightbridge Harlequin Ltd, Barrington Hall, Barrington, Cambridgeshire England. "If I don't know I don't know I think I know, If I don't know I know I think I don't know", R D Laing ------------------------------------------------------Bye!
andrew@berlioz (Andrew Palfreyman) (04/27/89)
In article <FN.89Apr25091425@jung.harlqn.uucp>, fn@jung.harlqn.uucp (Mr Beeblebrox) writes: (he's just this guy, you know...) > There has been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a simulation > of a meal could be good enough to be in effect a meal, or thereabouts. [..] > The Simulated Meal Syndrome ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ for example, Taco Bell (UK: Golden Egg:-) > [..] > Similar to the hurricane, imagine a computer systemn that could simulate > not the meal itself (pictures etc) but can generate all the right signals > [..] I don't have any philosophical problems with this; it's long been referred to in SF circles as "the reality machine". Small nibbles at the periphery are starting now - the data glove, the data suit. It's just the pragmatics which might be a little problematical. -- Andrew Palfreyman USENET: ...{this biomass}!nsc!logic!andrew National Semiconductor M/S D3969, 2900 Semiconductor Dr., PO Box 58090, Santa Clara, CA 95052-8090 ; 408-721-4788 there's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip
fransvo@htsa.uucp (Frans van Otten) (05/02/89)
In article <FN.89Apr25091425@jung.harlqn.uucp>, fn@jung.harlqn.uucp (Mr Beeblebrox) writes: > There has been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a simulation > of a meal could be good enough to be in effect a meal, or thereabouts. [..] > The Simulated Meal Syndrome > [..] > Similar to the hurricane, imagine a computer system that could simulate > not the meal itself (pictures etc) but can generate all the right signals Have you ever heard of a flight simulator ? These machines work so well that the pilot inside it really thinks he is flying a plane... -- Frans van Otten Don't blame me, I'm Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam just another Modula 2 Technische en Maritieme Faculteit compiler writer ! fransvo@htsa.uucp