markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) (08/12/89)
* In article <3612@csd4.milw.wisc.edu> markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: * * So back to my original point: whatever intelligence I possess that is over an * beyond what is regarded as normal intelligence is solely the result of my * own special training in the learning process itself... <those who are "behind" what is regarded as normal or high intelligence can catch up, with the right training, in due time> In article <485@edai.ed.ac.uk> cam@edai (Chris Malcolm) writes: * Your phrase "in due time" is interesting. More specific, you ask? Okay, then let's say a month in a highly intense and special course to, say, become proficient in (... let's find something real "hard" ...) Newtonian Physics. That's what I mean by "in due time". If you're really lacking a Phyysical intuition, we may even have to start with manipulating blocks in the beginning of the month and work our way up from there. Two months then. Of course, in virtue of the meta-experience you've accquired in the process (a crucial part of the whole argument), if I erased what you learned on the specific subject and we started again, then let's say 3 weeks the second time. 15 days the third time, 12 the fourth, etc. All this because you've learned how to learn. Understand? What, indeed, are our limits? Well this is a question that has come to mind a couple days ago. With the right material and right kind of training: How fast can a human being master the basic essentials of a human language? I offer the following challenge: I believe that it is possible to accquire a long-term grasp of the basic vocabulary (say 500 syntatic/function morphemes, 2000 basic specialized vocabulary items), and basic syntax in 1 day. My challenge is for you readers to try it, and find a way to do it. This is a simple experiment I've tried an innumerable times since the age of 8, but it's only been recently that I've begun to truly master the skill of learning a new language (the crucial experience was in having learned one while living in the foreign nation, but not in a day).
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (08/12/89)
From article <3800@csd4.milw.wisc.edu>, by markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins): \... \ How fast can a human being master the basic essentials of a human language? About 4 years of relatively single-minded effort. \... I believe that it is possible to accquire ..., and basic syntax in 1 day. Wow. How did you get it so wrong? I wonder what you mean by "basic essentials". How to name? How to predicate? Modify? Quantify? Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
andrew@berlioz (Lord Snooty @ The Giant Poisoned Electric Head ) (08/13/89)
In article <4552@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: > From article <3800@csd4.milw.wisc.edu>, by markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins): > \ How fast can a human being master the basic essentials of a human language? > About 4 years of relatively single-minded effort. > \... I believe that it is possible to accquire ..., and basic syntax in 1 day. > Wow. How did you get it so wrong? I wonder what you mean by "basic > essentials". How to name? How to predicate? Modify? Quantify? Think of a child transplanted at, oh, the age of eight to a foreign country with his/her family. Friends of mine have seen their children become relatively "fluent" after about six months. For children who have relatively few inhibitions and a normal childish curiosity this is probably par for the course. None of the children questioned knew much about special relativity, though :-) -- ........................................................................... Andrew Palfreyman There's a good time coming, be it ever so far away, andrew@berlioz.nsc.com That's what I says to myself, says I, time sucks jolly good luck, hooray!
aez@Data-IO.COM (Adam Zilinskas) (08/14/89)
In article <623@berlioz.nsc.com> andrew@berlioz (Lord Snooty @ The Giant Poisoned Electric Head ) writes: >> About 4 years of relatively single-minded effort. >> \... I believe that it is possible to accquire ..., and basic syntax in 1 day. >Think of a child transplanted at, oh, the age of eight to a foreign >country with his/her family. Friends of mine have seen their children >become relatively "fluent" after about six months. For children who have >relatively few inhibitions and a normal childish curiosity this is >probably par for the course. > If I remember my undergraduate courses in psychology (or was it physiology ?) Several studies seemed to show that there was a "hardwired" ability to learn languages fast inherint in children before adolesence. They eventually lose this capability and become more like us. A young whipper-snapper of 3-8 years would learn a new language far faster than us old geezers who might take a few years. It is one of those boot-strap instincts that makes whales know how to swim at birth, calves to have enough sense to keep with the herd, and young humans to quickly aquire communication skills. Adam Zilinskas Can anybody shore up any of my old memories of these theories?
rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) (08/16/89)
In article <3800@csd4.milw.wisc.edu> markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: > What, indeed, are our limits? Well this is a question that has come to >mind a couple days ago. With the right material and right kind of training: > How fast can a human being master the basic essentials of a human >language? There is a vast difference between learning a human language and mastering a body of knowledge. First of all, when can you say that a language has been 'learned?' When you can use it? For what purposes? Asking directions? Discussing nuclear physics? Secondly, by bringing the subject up in connection with IQ, you imply that language learning has something to do with intelligence. But, except in cases of obvious brain damage, all human beings acquire a language. All humans suffer decreasing ability to acquire a new language with age (with a phonological threshold at puberty and a syntactic threshold in the late teens. By 'threshold' I refer to a dramatic change in the capacity to assimilate a new language.) There is no evidence that speed of acquisition correlates with overall intelligence. In fact, very poor language learners can be highly intelligent people. (Do I hear sighs of relief out there in netland? :-) -- Rick Wojcik csnet: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com uucp: uw-beaver!bcsaic!rwojcik
cam@edai.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm cam@uk.ac.ed.edai 031 667 1011 x2550) (08/20/89)
In article <3800@csd4.milw.wisc.edu> markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >* In article <3612@csd4.milw.wisc.edu> markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >* >* So back to my original point: whatever intelligence I possess that is over an >* beyond what is regarded as normal intelligence is solely the result of my >* own special training in the learning process itself... ><those who are "behind" what is regarded as normal or high intelligence can >catch up, with the right training, in due time> > >In article <485@edai.ed.ac.uk> cam@edai (Chris Malcolm) writes: >* Your phrase "in due time" is interesting. > >More specific, you ask? Okay, then let's say a month in a highly intense >and special course to, say, become proficient in (... let's find something >real "hard" ...) Newtonian Physics. That's what I mean by "in due time". Being able to _learn_ Newtonian physics is a question of _docility_; the hard thing is _inventing_ Newtonian physics for the first time. That takes a mind of very rare and extraordinary power, such as Newton showed in many ways that he had. Learning what someone else already knows is kid's stuff; _real_ intelligence is evinced in learning what nobody else knows yet, but which is sufficiently important that the schoolkids of the future will be taught it. > What, indeed, are our limits? Well this is a question that has come to >mind a couple days ago. With the right material and right kind of training: > > How fast can a human being master the basic essentials of a human language? > >I offer the following challenge: I believe that it is possible to accquire a >long-term grasp of the basic vocabulary (say 500 syntatic/function morphemes, >2000 basic specialized vocabulary items), and basic syntax in 1 day. Many adults who move, in adulthood, to a new country which speaks a new language, manage to get on in the streets and bars of their new country for the rest of their lives with a 2,000 word vocabulary. That you can acquire even just this vocabulary in just one day, let alone some grammar too, is remarkable. And you claim that this is not a private innate skill of your own, but one which anyone can learn. I'm sure that if you can make a good case for this there will be no loack of research funding agencies willing to give it a whirl. Why, it would only take you a fortnight's work to learn 14 foreign languages to this level! That would be pretty convincing, and a pretty cheap experiment, too. -- Chris Malcolm cam@uk.ac.ed.edai 031 667 1011 x2550 Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK