brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (11/21/88)
A few more notes: 1) I *don't* censor. I edit. There is a world of difference. Any "power" I have comes from no position of authority, but instead from the support of the people who read the group. 2) Those asking me not to post offensive jokes aren't trying to censor me either. 3) Those *telling* me not to post offensive jokes wish they could be censors, but they aren't, so I don't have to listen. 4) Those wishing to have my "employer" *censure* me for posting offensive jokes are a borderline case. I don't view this as censorship, but I can see the case where it might be viewed as such. 5) Anybody who attempted to bring any legal tools into play, such as threatening legal action, or accusing me or my "employer" of promoting hatred -- they would be a censor. I don't think there's been much of this, as yet, but if there is, you can bet my ire would be raised very quickly. 6) This seems like a minority thing. About 5 people have written in protest. I have lost count of those who have written in support. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
dougm@uport.UUCP (Doug Moran) (11/22/88)
I haven't seen something get so out of hand in a long time. I think that it's funny that: 1) I have only seen two *anti* post people, but a large number of *pro* post people. 2) No enraged Scots have charged into the fray. And don't go telling me that Celts are less short tempered than Jews; I *am* a Celt. Maybe Celts are more used to laughing at themselves. Who knows? 3) JEDR wanted to "take action" first, and ask questions later. He reminds me of George Bush: first, the savage attacts; then, the kinder and gentler usenet. For the record: 1) I have a *lot* of Jewish friends. Santa Cruz has a very large Jewish community. I just broke up with a Jewish woman, and am dating a different Jewish woman (on and off). 2) I think JEDR is being a dweeb. Don't talk to Brad personally, threaten him. Good idea. That'll get him on your side. Let me see if I can find a stone for you. 3) I think Nancy (? the woman arguing against the post. My apologies if I mis-remembered the name) is being much more reasonable. I don't necessarily agree with her, but at least she's being reasonable. 4) Finally, I think everybody's probably said all the constructive things that can be said. I don't harbor any illusions that *my* thoughts will stem the tide of vitriol, however. There. Blaze away. Doug Moran @ amdcad!uport!dougm
bill@twwells.uucp (T. William Wells) (11/23/88)
In article <2365@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
: 1) I *don't* censor. I edit. There is a world of difference. Any
: "power" I have comes from no position of authority, but instead
: from the support of the people who read the group.
:
: 2) Those asking me not to post offensive jokes aren't trying to censor
: me either.
:
: 3) Those *telling* me not to post offensive jokes wish they could be
: censors, but they aren't, so I don't have to listen.
Right on all counts. I, for one, am more than a little irritated at
the propensity of certain "free speech" types to label any instance of
one person's choosing not to publish another's words as censorship.
The term "censor" refers only to acts performed by governments and
their agents.
However, the popular, pejorative, use of "censor" merely means to
fail to publish, when one has the means to do so. It definitely
would include editorial decisions, and the purpose of this distortion
does indeed seem to be to tar editorial discrimination with the brush
of censorship.
Be that as it may, no decision that a moderator or a system
administrator might take with respect to publishing or disseminiating
the contents of a newsgroup may legitemately be called censorship.
(With some, I hope obvious, exceptions.)
(For the linguisticly inclined, there is one other use of the word
"censor" which is more-or-less equivalent to "censure", but that
clearly is irrelevant here. That use is also mostly obsolete. See
the OED if you care.)
: 4) Those wishing to have my "employer" *censure* me for posting offensive
: jokes are a borderline case. I don't view this as censorship, but I
: can see the case where it might be viewed as such.
No, this is not a borderline case, there being no government involved.
Were your employer the government, it would be a borderline case.
: 5) Anybody who attempted to bring any legal tools into play, such as
: threatening legal action, or accusing me or my "employer" of promoting
: hatred -- they would be a censor. I don't think there's been much of
: this, as yet, but if there is, you can bet my ire would be raised
: very quickly.
Right. This brings the government into it.
: 6) This seems like a minority thing. About 5 people have written in protest.
: I have lost count of those who have written in support.
Add one more to your list of supporters.
---
Bill
{uunet|novavax}!proxftl!twwells!billdavid@mirror.TMC.COM (David Chesler) (11/24/88)
In article <262@uport.UUCP> dougm@uport.UUCP (Doug Moran) writes: >I haven't seen something get so out of hand in a long time. >I think that it's funny that: This does seem like more fury than the joke deserves, but perhaps this was a last-straw type thing, particularly coming at the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. >2) No enraged Scots have charged into the fray. And don't go >telling me that Celts are less short tempered than Jews; I >*am* a Celt. Maybe Celts are more used to laughing at themselves. >Who knows? Nancy, Jonathan, DavidM, Betsy, whoever else was anti-joke, what offended you? Was it the stereotyping (as cheap) or the murder? (Or something else?) -- David Chesler (david@prism.tmc.com, mirror!david) Repetition of where I stand: There can exist offensive jokes. IMHO this wasn't one of them. "Just don't read them" isn't valid, as the libel is capable of doing damage.
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (11/25/88)
Jack Benny and a show business colleague frequently lunched together,
Dutch treat. However, one sunny Monday, Benny was heard to say, "I'll
pay for lunch." Tuesday's newspaper headline: "Edgar Bergen Found
Beaten in Alley Outside Restaurant"
Pete
--
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