berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) (12/05/88)
Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather moderate posts. Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. Dan
olsen@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Jim Olsen) (12/05/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? Sadly, the answer appears be a definite >yes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. Dan is jumping to conclusions. Many people, including me, are angry with JEDR and others for their attempts at censorship. Their complaints to the newspapers may destroy much of Usenet as we know it. Some people, in their anger and frustration, sent messages containing ethnic slurs to some of those concerned. (I do not condone this action.) We do not know if the senders of these messages were truly racist, or merely used racial slurs calculated to upset the recipients. And even if the senders were racist, we have no evidence that jokes had an effect on their racism. >Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official >agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. Since Usenet has no official corporate existence, it can have no official agents. I think the jokes discourage bigotry, by laughing at it. Before one starts to censor jokes, it would be nice to have evidence that the jokes cause the bad effects you claim.
richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (12/05/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. > >There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic >jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. > >Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official >agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. Two possible responses: 1) Please keep excerpts from _World Weekly News_ in talk.rumours where they belong. 2) The jokes in r.h.f. caused all the flowers in my yard to die. Of course I can't prove this either. -- "If nothing else, the election means no more Ontario plonk" - Mordecai Richler richard@dogmeat.gryphon.COM dogmeat.gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville) (12/05/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. > >There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic >jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. > >Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official >agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. Yup. The people that sent the hate-mail to Nancy were obviously outstanding citizens, model members of their communities, until they were exposed to the criminally bigoted newsgroup, rec.humor.funny. Their minds, against their will, were being poisoned by Brad's steady litany of hate. Slowly, their charitable contributions dwindled, they dropped out of the Big Brother program, until finally, after reading the joke in question, they caved in and lost their tattered shreads of humanity. Kindly get real........ Kevin mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu "She's beautiful, popular, and obviously going through some emotional shoot-out to consent to date....the human tater-tot. What did you do, Keith, threaten her life?"
carlo@electro.UUCP (Carlo Sgro) (12/05/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? ^^^^^ > >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. > >There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic >jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. Wouldn't it be far more likely to believe that the person(s) who sent the E-mail slurs were bigoted to begin with rather than inspired into bigotry by any joke posted by Brad? Think back to your first or second year Statistics courses and review the difference between causation and correlation ... -- Carlo Sgro NET POLICE WARNING: .signatures that watmath!watcgl!electro!carlo are too long will be trunc
shore@ncifcrf.gov (Melinda Shore) (12/05/88)
[] The Washington Post had editorial this past Sunday on the recent rise in acceptability of anti-Semitic (specifically "JAP") jokes, and the "coincidental" increase in the number of racial and anti-Jewish incidents on college campuses. There was also an article about a week ago concerning some frat members at Northern Illinois University who where suspended after performing a humorous skit in blackface. The university has a history of students involved in white supremacist organizations, including publication of white supremacist literature and rallies on campus. I don't think racist jokes cause racism, in general. What I don't doubt for a second is that toleration of racist jokes puts a stamp of approval on racism, and that caring communities should tolerate neither. -- Melinda Shore shore@ncifcrf.gov NCI Supercomputer Facility ..!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!shore
ask@cbnews.ATT.COM (Arthur S. Kamlet) (12/06/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. >There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic >jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. >Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official >agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. Well said. But prepare to have the world disagree that the anti-semitic slurs were amti-semitic slurs. -- Art Kamlet ask@cbrmb.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
adams3@cisunx.UUCP (Larry Adams) (12/06/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. > >A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. > >Dan umm, i don't agree. discussion of two particular ethnic jokes lead to a heated discussion about racism, and two individuals sent remarks which were interpreted as racist & bigoted. notice how this was phrased, however. there were "a number" of remarks (although i suppose that two may be considered a number), they were "anti-semitic slurs" (i feel they fall under the category of harassment rather than anti-semitism), and they were in reply to a "rather moderate post". all in the eye of the beholder, i suppose. larry adams standard disclaimers apply
jlc@wucfua.wustl.edu (Roving UIUC CS Grad Student) (12/06/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. > >There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic >jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. I haven't noticed any anti-semitic slurs ON THE NET (although there certainly appear to have been some via E-Mail, unfortunately). However, I'd agree that the "racist" joke has provoked some bigoted responses, largely on the part of those protesting it. More than once I've seen the "white male == bigot" assertion made (and, thankfully, challenged). To that extent I'd agree that ethnic jokes have caused some display of bigotry. "Caused" is much too strong a word --- I strongly suspect that the bigoted attitudes, both of the anonymous E-Mailers and the anti-White male bigots on the net, were there before The Joke was posted and all this discussion erupted. >Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official >agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. An "official agent of usenet"? USENET *HAS* no "official agents" --- it's an anarchy. The closest you could come to an "official agent" are the highly unofficial net.gods --- those that have been around a long time and have authority due to expertise. There is, simply, nothing and no one that can be pointed at and called USENET. And "no benefit whatever"? I think there may have been a definite benefit: those who actually believe in the ethnic stereotypes have been informed by the majority of those on the net that WE DO NOT. And those that believe that ethnic jokes actually do perpetuate ethnic stereotypes have, hopefully, seen that their view is also not shared by most of those on the net. >Dan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | John L. Coolidge Internet:jlc@wucfua.wustl.edu UUCP:jlc@wucfua.uucp | | "My other account is in Illinois" I just read news here... | | With the exception of included material: All above opinions are mine. | | Licensing terms available. Copyright (c) 1988 John L. Coolidge. Copying | | allowed if and only if attributed. All other rights reserved. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------
clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) (12/06/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu>, Dan Berleant writes: > Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. No. I can see it now, "Hey Sally, check this joke out." "Gee, I guess Jews must be stingy!" Spare me, please. If anything, said jokes have exactly the opposite effect. Wanna agrue this 'til you're blue in the face? I'm game. > There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic > jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather > moderate posts. "A number of anti-semitic slurs ..." I believe this "number" was a whopping 2; and it must be painfully obvious to all expect the completely brain-dead that they were sent out by an immature twit (who may or may not be an anti-Semite) who was looking for attention - the comments were apparently chosen for maximum shock value. > Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official > agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. I consider laughter to be a benefit; do you disagree? -- Chris (Munson)-Long "The proofs are so obvious that they can be left to the reader." Lars V. Ahlfors, _Complex Analysis_
flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) (12/07/88)
In article <679@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> shore@ncifcrf.gov (Melinda Shore) writes: >[] >I don't think racist jokes cause racism, in general. What I don't >doubt for a second is that toleration of racist jokes puts a stamp of >approval on racism, and that caring communities should tolerate >neither. One bit of data: in England [where racist jokes are illegal] racist comments are far more common acceptable among the upper class than they are in the States, where they are not. Can't say much about the other classes, but racist graffitti is more common in the parts of England I've seen than in America. -- From: flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) Reply-To: sheridan@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk Portal,MacNet: FlashsMom
oliver@unc.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) (12/07/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu> berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: >Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > >Sadly, the answer appears be a definite yes. > >There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic >jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather >moderate posts. > >Promoting ethnic jokes in rec.humor.funny (by the moderator, an official >agent of usenet) has no benefit whatever, and promotes bigotry as well. > >Dan Now, if you review the postings to the net on this subject, the only ethnic slurs that were actually posted as articles in fact came from those who objected to the jokes. The "number" anti-semetic slurs you refer to apparently come from one, maybe two people who have access to the net, and were e-mail messages, not postings. Are you claiming that these one or two people were not anti-semitic before this started? Heh. I'd like to see your reasoning on this. Bill Oliver
shani@TAURUS.BITNET (12/11/88)
In article <4204@cs.utexas.edu>, berleant@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Berleant) writes: > Do ethnic jokes cause bigotry? > There have been examples right here in the current discussion of ethnic > jokes. A number of anti-semitic slurs were sent in reaction to rather > moderate posts. > > Dan You see class? this is a VERY GOOD example of misusing logic! Dan is adding assumption into his conclusion path... Now realy Dan, who said those anti-semitic slures has anything to do with the joke that started it all? who said they have anything to do with the argument at all? Now realy people, stop reguaring racism as a rational response to events. It's not. Racisim is a kind of idiocy and should be treated as such. O.S.