sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) (12/05/88)
The _Boston Herald_ of 12/4/88, page 2, contains an article on the JEDR/Templeton case. JEDR, who has decided not to post to the net for a while, would like you all to know that it contains errors, and given some of the things it says, I agree. JEDR's comments: 1) The word "legal" in para. 2 should be "legitimate." 2) Para. 3: "Richmond... [is getting help from FBI et al. to] get a computer network called USENET either censored or off the air." He didn't call for either. "USENET has many valuable aspects & must be differentiated from one small part of it," he says (here, now, sitting next to me). He did not use the word "censorship" at any time. 3) Para. 8: "he turned on his computer on Nov. 8..." Wrong; he did not say that the "six million" joke, referred to in this paragraph, appeared on Nov. 8. 4) Numerous factual errors. JEDR is trying to clear this up with Herald management. My own comment: I am firmly astride the fence on this issue (were I Templeton, I wouldn't post racist jokes, but I suppose he has every right to), but I know JEDR personally, and I will vouch for his integrity. If he says he was misquoted, I believe him. The article also refers to his actions as "a one-man campaign." What are Nancy Gould and David Makowsky, chopped liver? Furthermore, mightn't the original print article, in the Kitchener _Waterloo-Record,_ have been prompted by a *Canadian,* not by the eevil Spirit of Richmond that doth corrode the grand anarchic traditions of the net? Furthermore, the _Boston Herald_ is (or, until very recently, was) owned by Rupert Murdoch, whose reputation for journalistic integrity, or lack thereof, is well-known. Whatever JEDR has done in the past, the story is clearly now on the wire, and how far it spreads is out of his control. JEDR's current position, I believe, is: he doesn't want to deprive anyone of their Constitutional rights, but Templeton et al. should use better judgement, like the editor of a newspaper would, to exclude overtly racist comments. Flames on Grand Issues of Free Speech and All That Bullshit go in /dev/null. Please. I doubt much of this "debate" has convinced anyone of anything. -- "Some people get results, I get consequences." --Jimmy Durante : bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!sethg / standard disclaimer : Seth Gordon / MIT Brnch., PO Box 53, Cambridge, MA 02139
jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) (12/05/88)
In article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) writes: >JEDR's current position, I believe, is: he doesn't want to deprive >anyone of their Constitutional rights, but Templeton et al. should use >better judgement, like the editor of a newspaper would, to exclude >overtly racist comments. It's too late for this! No matter how justified Jonathan Richmond's complaints and flames were, he's managed to bring the Real World(tm) (That (tm) is also (tm), but I forget by whom :-) into it. You yourself said that it is "out of his control," and how true that is. I think that we are about to see quite a few sites being forced to leave the 'net at least temporarily. To have that happen as a result of a few people being offended by a joke and making a big enough stink about it to bring in outsiders who won't understand the intricacies of the Usenet and who will instead simply take the sites in their control off of the 'net is a real shame. I think most of us knew from the start that Jonathan Richmond and the people who argued on his side of this issue would not be able to get Brad Templeton out of r.h.f. On the other hand, many of us also knew from the start that this would probably be the result. Perhaps JEDR et al could have been just a bit less eager and a bit more rational? Jonathan Kamens MIT Project Athena
ockerbloom-john@CS.YALE.EDU (John A. Ockerbloom) (12/05/88)
In article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) writes: >The _Boston Herald_ of 12/4/88, page 2, contains an article on the >JEDR/Templeton case. JEDR, who has decided not to post to the net for a >while, would like you all to know that it contains errors, and given >some of the things it says, I agree.... > >Whatever JEDR has done in the past, the story is clearly now on the >wire, and how far it spreads is out of his control... Interesting. Just a few weeks ago the press was reporting on the virus that had infected this Net, and now it seems we've infected them with one as well... :-) John Ockerbloom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ockerbloom@cs.yale.EDU ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!ockerbloom ocker@yalecs.BITNET Box 5323 Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520
oliver@unc.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) (12/06/88)
In article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) writes: > >... but I know JEDR personally, and I will vouch for his >integrity. > What does this prove? Haldeman vouched for Colson... > >Whatever JEDR has done in the past, the story is clearly now on the >wire, and how far it spreads is out of his control. Right. Reminds me of a homicide case I worked on once where the defendant claimed he just fired the gun -- where the bullet went was not his responsibility. > >Flames on Grand Issues of Free Speech and All That Bullshit go in >/dev/null. Yeah, I guess "Free Speech and All That Bullshit" pretty much sums up the difference in our perspectives. Bill Oliver
mem@zinn.MV.COM (Mark E. Mallett) (12/07/88)
In article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) writes: >The _Boston Herald_ of 12/4/88, page 2, contains an article on the >JEDR/Templeton case. JEDR, who has decided not to post to the net for a >while, would like you all to know that it contains errors... He is not "deciding not to post" by having somebody else post his thoughts for him. All he is doing is the equivalent of casting a remark over his sholder as he slams the door on the way out. I would hope that he either says what he has to say himself, and stays around for the discussion, or doesn't say anything. > I know JEDR personally, and I will vouch for his integrity. In the face of his behaviour, this will take a LOT of vouching for. Remember the "would you hire Morris" quiz? I'll bet this guy would fare much worse in that poll. >The article also refers to his actions as "a one-man campaign." What >are Nancy Gould and David Makowsky, chopped liver? They are people who have engaged in debate against great odds, for which I think they have earned a lot of respect (if not much agreement). JEDR on the other hand has apparently tried to HARM the people he disagrees with, out of an attitude of moral superiority. This is beneath contempt. >Furthermore, the _Boston Herald_ is (or, until very recently, was) owned >by Rupert Murdoch, whose reputation for journalistic integrity, or lack >thereof, is well-known. Consider that statement, then consider that the Herald is the one that ran the story. I wonder if JEDR even tried to contact the Boston Globe, the major newpaper in Boston. >JEDR's current position, I believe, is: he doesn't want to deprive >anyone of their Constitutional rights... Which he is proving in a very strange way. The Herald article says that Richmond is a native of London, England. Is he making this gracious gesture, of not depriving people of their US Constitutional rights, as a US citizen? >Flames on Grand Issues of Free Speech and All That Bullshit go in >/dev/null. Whether you associate them that way in your mind is your own business. I don't. >: Seth Gordon / MIT Brnch., PO Box 53, Cambridge, MA 02139 -mm- -- Mark E. Mallett Zinn Computer Co/ PO Box 4188/ Manchester NH/ 03103 Bus. Phone: 603 645 5069 Home: 603 424 8129 BIX: mmallett uucp: mem@zinn.MV.COM ( ...{decvax|elrond|harvard}!zinn!mem ) Northern MA and Southern NH consultants: Ask me about MV.COM
dave@stcns3.stc.oz (Dave Horsfall) (12/07/88)
In article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) writes: | Furthermore, the _Boston Herald_ is (or, until very recently, was) owned | by Rupert Murdoch, whose reputation for journalistic integrity, or lack | thereof, is well-known. Oh Chr*st! That explains _everything_! Mr Murdoch is well known to us Aussies (from whence he came, to our perpetual shame) and he's also giving the Poms a hard time too. -- Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU), Alcatel-STC Australia, dave@stcns3.stc.oz dave%stcns3.stc.oz.AU@uunet.UU.NET, ...munnari!stcns3.stc.oz.AU!dave PCs haven't changed computing history - merely repeated it
greggy@infmx.UUCP (greg yachuk) (12/08/88)
In article <414@zinn.MV.COM> mem@zinn.MV.COM (Mark E. Mallett) writes: >In article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) writes: >>JEDR's current position, I believe, is: he doesn't want to deprive >>anyone of their Constitutional rights... > >Which he is proving in a very strange way. The Herald article says that >Richmond is a native of London, England. Is he making this gracious ^^^^^^ >gesture, of not depriving people of their US Constitutional rights, as a >US citizen? Actually, (if I recall correctly) the article simply said that he is from London. This could also refer to London, Canada which is quite near to Waterloo (100km or so?), which is where Brad Templeton (and University of Waterloo) is based. In any case, his wish to not deprive anyone (including Canadians such as Brad) of their [American] constitutional right is absurd. >>: Seth Gordon / MIT Brnch., PO Box 53, Cambridge, MA 02139 >Mark E. Mallett Zinn Computer Co/ PO Box 4188/ Manchester NH/ 03103 Greg Yachuk Informix Software Inc., Menlo Park, CA (415) 322-4100 {uunet,pyramid}!infmx!greggy why yes, I DID choose that login myself
greyham@ausonics.OZ (Greyham Stoney) (12/12/88)
Hey, I gotta say, all this r.h.f. business is really good for a laugh from where I sit (down in .oz); (Almost as good as the MES business!!! that was a laugh - so go ahead, sue me; I live 10000km away, and you probably can't afford the air-fare anyhow); but I just gotta follow-up this one.... in article <8304@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, sethg@athena.mit.edu (Seth Gordon) says: > Furthermore, the _Boston Herald_ is (or, until very recently, was) owned > by Rupert Murdoch, whose reputation for journalistic integrity, or lack > thereof, is well-known. Yeah - believe him!. The guy owns the vast majority of the print media here in Oz; if we want to read anyones opinion, we have to read his!. But really, if his bozo's have mis-represented you, why did you trust them?. (any Aussie could tell you you can't trust those guys..... :-) Greyham. -- # Greyham Stoney: (disclaimer not necessary: I'm obviously irresponsible) # greyham@ausonics.oz - Ausonics Pty Ltd, Lane Cove. /* Official Sponsor */ # WARNING: ausonics.oz will soon go; if replys bounce, try: # greyham@utscsd.oz - Uni of Technology, Sydney.