mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) (07/02/89)
Over the last week or so I've noticed the proliferation of subject lines beginning with "Re^n:", as in Subject: Re^6: Flag burning where "6" corresponds to the number of articles in the thread, at least according to the References: line. I assume this is no coincidence, and since these articles were posted by a number of different people at different sites, I presume there's software involved (or else a vast conspiracy). Is this a C news-ism? A TMNN-ism? All I knows is that it breaks rn followups, which end up as Subject: Re: Re^6: Flag burning unless fixed in the editor. Curious. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@tis.llnl.gov / uunet!tis.llnl.gov!mcb
lamy@ai.utoronto.ca (Jean-Francois Lamy) (07/02/89)
mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: >Over the last week or so I've noticed the proliferation of subject >lines beginning with "Re^n:", as in It's an nn-ism. I guess No News is good news for a lot of people, enough to rewire their brain and switch news readers (the "... writes:" line with no message-id is also a hint that the poster is using nn). But I do wish nn had this feature excised. Jean-Francois Lamy lamy@ai.utoronto.ca, uunet!ai.utoronto.ca!lamy AI Group, Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) (07/03/89)
Agreed. Hunt NN down, take it out, and stomp it. Re^n breaks virtually every piece of news reading software ever written, to a greater or lesser degree, and plays hell with mechanisms that follow Subject: threads. Bill Wisner wisner@mica.berkeley.edu ucbvax!mica!wisner I'm not the NRA either.
tneff@bfmny0.UUCP (Tom Neff) (07/03/89)
In article <3583@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >While it is anti-social of NN to [insert "Re^n:" into Subject lines], >perhaps it's not a bad idea in the long run. > >For in the long run, it is the References line that should link messages >and threads, not the subject line. When newsreading software comes along that fully supports threading via the References line, it will automatically be able to tell you how "deep" a reply is (2, 6, etc) without recourse to parsing the Subject line. So NN's behavior will always be either obnoxious or unnecessary. Numbering followup depth in the Subject line only works if everybody does it, anyway. Most newsreaders don't, so it's absolute horse***t and a waste of time except perhaps in a closed in-house newsgroup if everyone in a shop uses NN. Since it exists, though, it would be nice to patch 'rn' to survive it. -- "My God, Thiokol, when do you \\ Tom Neff want me to launch -- next April?" \\ uunet!bfmny0!tneff
mlandau@bbn.com (Matt Landau) (07/03/89)
In news.misc wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) writes: >Agreed. Hunt NN down, take it out, and stomp it. Alternatively, every nn user in the world could apply the following trivial patch. It's certainly the first thing *I* did after bringing nn up! *** /tmp/,RCSt1a11324 Mon Jul 3 12:27:17 1989 --- answer.c Mon Jul 3 12:25:56 1989 *************** *** 367,376 **** --- 367,380 ---- fputs("Subject: ", t); + #if VIRGIN if (re == 0) fputs("Re: ", t); else if (re > 0) fprintf(t, "Re^%d: ", re + 1); + #else + fputs("Re: ", t); + #endif if (prefix) { fputs(prefix, t);
wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) (07/04/89)
In article <3583@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >For in the long run, it is the References line that should link messages >and threads, not the subject line. I'll agree with this statement when a significant percentage of USENET sites handle References: lines correctly -- no inserted commas (are you listening, CMU?), no truncation at 127 characters, and always updating the References: line when an article is followed up to.
ronald@ibmpcug.UUCP (Ronald Khoo) (07/05/89)
In article <14433@bfmny0.UUCP> tneff@bfmny0.UUCP (Tom Neff) writes: [about NN's NASTY Re^<digit>:] > >Since it exists, though, it would be nice to patch 'rn' to survive it. Naah... just patch the news transport to remove the ^<digits>... In case you missed it.. :-) >"My God, Thiokol, when do you \\ Tom Neff >want me to launch -- next April?" \\ uunet!bfmny0!tneff -- Ronald.Khoo@ibmpcug.CO.UK (The IBM PC User Group, PO Box 360, Harrow HA1 4LQ) Path: ...!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!ronald Phone: +44-1-863 1191 Fax: +44-1-863 6095 Disclaimer: With my opinion of PCs, ibmpcug probably disclaims knowledge of me!
storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) (07/06/89)
In article <KIM.89Jul4095723@kannel.lut.fi> kim@kannel.lut.fi (Kimmo Suominen) writes: >I never (NEVER) seem to get multiple Re's on the subject line and I've never >seen them (only Re: Re^x). And these will also disappear when I issue patch #4 for nn. The consensus on the net is to nuke Re^n: and I will do that (look at the Subject: line of this article.) Patch #4 will also allow the inclusion of the article-id in the "... writes:" line for those who wants it (see the first line of this article.) -- Kim F. Storm storm@texas.dk Tel +45 429 174 00 Texas Instruments, Marielundvej 46E, DK-2730 Herlev, Denmark No news is good news, but nn is better!
bill@inebriae.UUCP (Bill Kennedy) (07/07/89)
In article <89Jul2.110144edt.10370@neat.ai.toronto.edu> lamy@ai.utoronto.ca (Jean-Francois Lamy) writes: >mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: > >>Over the last week or so I've noticed the proliferation of subject >>lines beginning with "Re^n:", as in > >It's an nn-ism. I guess No News is good news for a lot of people, enough It's also maddening when you want to use the `k' button to get rid of all of the discussion on the subject. Since the subject line changes, you have to get rid of them as they appear. -- Bill Kennedy {texbell,att,cs.utexas.edu,sun!daver}!ssbn!bill bill@ssbn.WLK.COM or attmail!ssbn!bill
mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst) (07/09/89)
In article <89Jul2.110144edt.10370@neat.ai.toronto.edu>, lamy@ai.utoronto.ca (Jean-Francois Lamy) writes: >mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: >>Over the last week or so I've noticed the proliferation of subject >>lines beginning with "Re^n:", as in > >It's an nn-ism. I guess No News is good news for a lot of people, enough >to rewire their brain and switch news readers (the "... writes:" line with >no message-id is also a hint that the poster is using nn). But I do wish >nn had this feature excised. Ya know, I really hate to say this, but... The "Re^n:" business is a direct violation of RFC-1036: ... 2.1.4. Subject The "Subject" line (formerly "Title") tells what the message is about. It should be suggestive enough of the contents of the message to enable a reader to make a decision whether to read the | message based on the subject alone. If the message is submitted in | response to another message (e.g., is a follow-up) the default | subject should begin with the four characters "Re:", and the "References" line is required. For follow-ups, the use of the "Summary" line is encouraged. ... 2.2.5. References This field lists the Message-ID's of any messages prompting the submission of this message. It is required for all follow-up messages, and forbidden when a new subject is raised. Implementations should provide a follow-up command, which allows a | user to post a follow-up message. This command should generate a | "Subject" line which is the same as the original message, except | that if the original subject does not begin with "Re:" or "re:", the | four characters "Re:" are inserted before the subject. If there is no "References" line on the original header, the "References" line should contain the Message-ID of the original message (including the angle brackets). If the original message does have a "References" line, the follow-up message should have a "References" line containing the text of the original "References" line, a blank, and the Message-ID of the original message. ... Lines that begin with "|" are of special interest. You should note that the subject header in a followup MUST begin with the four characters "Re: ". Shape up or ship out, nn. -- Marc Unangst UUCP smart : mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us UUCP dumb : ...!uunet!sharkey!mudos!mju UUCP dumb alt.: ...!{ames,rutgers}!mailrus!clip!mudos!mju Internet : mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us
mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst) (07/09/89)
In article <401@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>, aem@ibiza.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >Personally I think it's elegant. Alot more attractive than >"Re: Re: re: re: Re: Re: guns and the NRA (was: guns guns guns guns guns)" >or somesuch. Huh? A "real" newsreader (one that follows RFC-1036) only adds "Re:" if it is not already present. -- Marc Unangst UUCP smart : mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us UUCP dumb : ...!uunet!sharkey!mudos!mju UUCP dumb alt.: ...!{ames,rutgers}!mailrus!clip!mudos!mju Internet : mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us
bsa@telotech.uucp (Brandon S. Allbery) (07/10/89)
And, presumably, when rn stops giving me "% interp buffer overflow!" and dropping core when the references: line exceeds a certain size? ++Brandon
jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) (07/11/89)
In article <1989Jul10.130530.10909@telotech.uucp> bsa@telotech.uucp (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: >And, presumably, when rn stops giving me "% interp buffer overflow!" and >dropping core when the references: line exceeds a certain size? Enter :-) mode: This is not a bug, but a feature. It stops flame wars cold after a certain number of followups have progressed! End :-) mode. Seriously, a simple modification to respond.c makes this much less of a problem (I did this a few months back): Index: respond.c Prereq: 4.3.1.5 *** OLDrespond.c Wed Sep 18 01:11:37 1985 --- respond.c Tue May 2 13:50:39 1989 *************** *** 1,6 **** ! /* $Header: respond.c,v 4.3.1.5 85/09/10 11:05:00 lwall Exp $ * * $Log: respond.c,v $ * Revision 4.3.1.5 85/09/10 11:05:00 lwall * Improved %m in in_char(). * --- 1,10 ---- ! /* $Header: respond.c,v 4.3.1.5+JTB 89/04/02 13:44:00 jbuck Exp $ * * $Log: respond.c,v $ + * + * Revision 4.3.1.5+JTB 89/05/02 13:44:00 jbuck + * Made a separate, quadruple-size buffer for header in followup. + * * Revision 4.3.1.5 85/09/10 11:05:00 lwall * Improved %m in in_char(). * *************** *** 354,359 **** --- 358,364 ---- followup() { bool incl_body = (*buf == 'F'); + char hbuf[4*LBUFLEN]; /* four times the old size */ artopen(art); tmpfp = fopen(headname,"w"); *************** *** 361,368 **** printf(cantcreate,headname) FLUSH; return; } ! interp(buf, (sizeof buf), getval("NEWSHEADER",NEWSHEADER)); ! fprintf(tmpfp,"%s",buf); if (incl_body && artfp != Nullfp) { #ifdef VERBOSE if (verbose) --- 366,373 ---- printf(cantcreate,headname) FLUSH; return; } ! interp(hbuf, (sizeof hbuf), getval("NEWSHEADER",NEWSHEADER)); ! fprintf(tmpfp,"%s",hbuf); if (incl_body && artfp != Nullfp) { #ifdef VERBOSE if (verbose) -- -- Joe Buck jbuck@epimass.epi.com, uunet!epimass.epi.com!jbuck
storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) (07/12/89)
In article <532.24B7A45F@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us> mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst) writes: >Ya know, I really hate to say this, but... >The "Re^n:" business is a direct violation of RFC-1036: I am truefully sorry for having violated RFC-1036, and I apologize to all the non-nn users who I have caused problems with the Re^n: prefix. With the just released patch #4 applied, nn will just put a single Re: in the subject line (as you can see from this article's subject.) So I honestly hope that the Re^n: prefixes will disappear very soon. On the other hand, I did get some YES votes in favor of the Re^n: style, so perhaps it is something to consider for a future version of RFC-1036. The result of the vote for or against including the article-id in the "... writes:" line was: YES, include it: 12 NO, don't include it: 10 DON'T CARE: 10 Make it optional: 3 So I have made it optional in nn (as it is in rn). -- Kim F. Storm storm@texas.dk Tel +45 429 174 00 Texas Instruments, Marielundvej 46E, DK-2730 Herlev, Denmark No news is good news, but nn is better!
tneff@bfmny0.UUCP (Tom Neff) (07/13/89)
In article <363@texas.dk> storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes: >On the other hand, I did get some YES votes in favor of the Re^n: >style, so perhaps it is something to consider for a future version of >RFC-1036. I'm glad the non-conformant header will be promptly removed, and I don't want to add unnecessary flames, but I just want to point something out that those YES voters may not have thought of: Unless EVERYONE obeys the "Re^n:" syntax, it is useless. You can exchange ten followups with RN(1) users and end up with Re^5: or less in your message. No meaningful information is conveyed. On the other hand, if References: were fully implemented and understood by news reading software, then a much more complete picture of the "followup tree" would be available than a mere "Re^n:" could ever convey. And this References: understanding could be coded by the NN project team, if it chose, without impacting RFC1036 in the slightest. -- "My God, Thiokol, when do you \\ Tom Neff want me to launch -- next April?" \\ uunet!bfmny0!tneff
aem@ibiza.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) (07/14/89)
It's been about a week since Kim said Re^n: was coming out of nn, and several days since the patch was issued. I think that the topic could be ended here. Thanks you. a.e.mossberg - aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu/aem@umiami.BITNET - Pahayokee Bioregion Meta; Bill; Meta; who soft keeps for him his love's; long girl's body sweet to fuck; Bill. - William Faulkner
jeremy@misadel.oz (Jeremy Begg) (07/18/89)
In article <532.24B7A45F@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us>, mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst) writes: > The "Re^n:" business is a direct violation of RFC-1036: > 2.1.4. Subject > ... If the message is submitted in > | response to another message (e.g., is a follow-up) the default > | subject should begin with the four characters "Re:", and the > "References" line is required. > ... > 2.2.5. References > > This field lists the Message-ID's of any messages prompting the > submission of this message. It is required for all follow-up > messages, and forbidden when a new subject is raised. > ... If the 'posting' part of all newsreaders everywhere did as they were meant to, it would be possible to construct a newsreader which performed an intelligent sort of the news items, before they were displayed, based on the Subject: and References: headers, and the date the item was _sent_. It would then be a simple matter for the user to see all the followups to all the items and select those discussions which were of interest, instead of wading through a tangled mess of originals and followups. At the moment, I find that in some newsgroups, the followups are received _before_ the original items -- a bit of a pain if there were 50 or more postings received that day! I suspect this is happening when a news batch is prepared from separate posting files, each of the same name but increasing in version number (yes, I use VMS), so that the highest version (ie most recently created) is processed first when the postings are conglomerated into a singe NEWS.BATCH file. But that is a separate problem, one that ought to be fixed at the time news batch is forwarded. Jeremy Begg +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Management Information Systems, | E-Mail: jeremy@misadel.oz | | 125 Dew Street, Thebarton, | Phone: +61 8 3524877 (work) | | South Australia 5031 | | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (08/08/89)
In article <WISNER.89Jul2113412@anableps.berkeley.edu> wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) writes: >Agreed. Hunt NN down, take it out, and stomp it. Re^n breaks virtually every >piece of news reading software ever written, to a greater or lesser degree, >and plays hell with mechanisms that follow Subject: threads. While it is anti-social of NN to act this way, perhaps it's not a bad idea in the long run. For in the long run, it is the References line that should link messages and threads, not the subject line. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473