[news.misc] GEnie uplink is shut down..

canada@crash.cts.com (Diane Barlow Close) (12/24/89)

Well, the GEnie-Usenet link is down.  So much for all the doom-
and-gloom-sayers in news.misc who figured that Usenet is too
disorganized to accomplish anything.  I'd say we were pretty
successful (this time).

Some of you might be interested in the events that led me to post
about Dave Small's idea in such a strongly-worded way.  Also, it
is my only chance to ``talk'' to Dave directly since he's not
answering his mail (or is it just my mail :-)  No surprise there.

I had known about the Usenet-GEnie link for several days before
it was actually announced.  When I was first told it existed (not
many details were given) and I thought the link was a great idea. 
It presented another place to send news.  After all, isn't the
purpose of Usenet to be a free-flow of information,
spreading as much information, around to as many sites, as
possible?

What I didn't know then was that the Usenet news being placed on
GEnie was being covered by their copyright (or at least the GEnie
people figured the news was now copyrighted).  I discovered this
fact the day of Dave's ``the link is up'' posting.  In a
discussion about a friend trying to obtain several of my Usenet
postings from the Usenet-uplink area of GEnie, GEnie customer
service people threatened to ``sue'' any site found posting news
that GEnie had received from Usenet *after* GEnie had received it
('cause the Usenet news now ``belonged'' to GEnie).

Before all you amateur copyright lawyers send follow-up flames,
let me assure you that I realize the ridiculousness and
unenforceabililty of this situation.  GEnie *can't* copyright
something that's already in the public domain.  (And I probably
got stuck talking to a tired, over-zealous GEnie representative,
rather than an ``informed'' person.)  But, the confusion
surrounding this situation on GEnie's part was enough to get me
worried.

Next I received some reliable information that Dave was on the
verge of licensing the ``link technology'' to GEnie.  If we
didn't act very fast to convince Dave to rethink the link, it
wouldn't matter if *his* atari newsgroup-GEnie link were shut
down, 'cause GEnie would be busy draining (and copyrighting) the
rest of Usenet.  (And Dave, Mark Booth did NOT give me this
information, so you can start talking to him again.)

Next, Dave's ``the link is up'' posting carried the tone of `the
link is carved in stone, the only thing that I'll change is
whether individual's postings are removed'.  After careful
consideration of all the events, I was convinced me that I had to
spurred me to strike in the quickest, hardest manner I
could.  

I believed I didn't have much time to waste with gentle, ``let's
think about this guys'' letters.  Sorry my strongly worded
posting irritated Dave, but it had the desired effect very
quickly:  mobilize as many people as possible to convince Dave to
re-think the link.  While I knew that many of you would post
loud, angry responses, I knew that many more would write quiet,
well-reasoned responses (showing *both* sides of the argument) in
answer to my posting.  I believe my ``inciteful'' posting put
many, many more reasoned responses in Dave's mailbox than if I
had written an easily-ignored, calmly-worded appeal to the net. 
I wanted to spur as many people to respond as possible, and I
think I was successful.

That's not to say I was just in this ``battle'' to raise the cry
and then leave.  No sir.  I was prepared for the long haul.  Dave
actually surprised me when he withdrew the link so suddenly after
only a few days of protest.  His first posting led me to believe
that the link would be here for a long time no matter what.

So now I don't have to write to the management of GEnie, and I
don't have to organize petitions, and I don't have to appeal to
sites feeding GEnie to stop.  There was even a movement to change
news sending software so that it attached ``copylefts'' to *whole
batches* of news, thus preventing GEnie from using many, many
postings.

Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation must be
commended for coming up with, and organizing the execution of,
that last idea.  I'd also like to thank Richard for placing the
FSF's lawyers at my disposal.  I'm very happy I didn't need to
use them.

I'd like to thank Dave for giving the net the best Christmas
present we could ever have wanted:  peace for the present and
hope for the future.

I'd like to go on record as saying I'm NOT against sites that
make a profit from Usenet, nor do I have many problems with read-
only sites.  I do, however, have serious problems with any site
that tries to copyright my (or anyone's) postings and prevent the
dissemination of information.

I'd like to work with Dave to make the GEnie-Usenet link viable
and useful (for both sides).  If Dave declines my offer (and I
expect he will :-) then I hope he at least posts his link ideas
for the net for discussion *before* implementation.  It would be
even better if he accepted the help and support of the many, many
knowledgeable people who volunteered it this week.

Well, that's all I have to say on the topic.  The rest of you can
continue this discussion (as I know you will).  Don't let it
degenerate into too much name-calling.  :-)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone (even you, 
Dave :-)
-- 
Diane Barlow Close
      {nosc, ucsd}!crash!canada
      canada@crash.cts.com
      Free Canada -- Trade Mulroney

brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (12/24/89)

Please folks, let's not all flame about a lot of heresay.  I know the
people who run GEnie, and I feel fairly sure that they would not try
to claim any particular copyright on material fed to USENET from GEnie,
unless some effort were done to filter that feed.

As far as I know, GEnie would probably be glad to act as a USENET feed for
material uploaded to USENET, passing it on to other sites, for $6/hour,
once they get such software up.

So please, no flame wars over something that somebody thinks they heard
from somebody not in a position to say anything.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

dlm@druwy.ATT.COM (Dan Moore) (12/27/89)

[Let me start by saying that while this reads like a flame of Diane,
that it isn't.  It is a flame against a much larger group, not just one
person.  Diane's note was just a convienent starting point.  --- dlm]

in article <966@crash.cts.com>, canada@crash.cts.com (Diane Barlow
Close) says:
> Next I received some reliable information that Dave was on the
> verge of licensing the ``link technology'' to GEnie.  If we
> didn't act very fast to convince Dave to rethink the link, it
> wouldn't matter if *his* atari newsgroup-GEnie link were shut
> down, 'cause GEnie would be busy draining (and copyrighting) the
> rest of Usenet.  (And Dave, Mark Booth did NOT give me this
> information, so you can start talking to him again.)

	Very interesting.  I talk to Dave far more than most people and I
NEVER heard anything about his "licensing the ``link technology''.  I
suspect that your "source" wasn't as well informed as he/she thought.

> That's not to say I was just in this ``battle'' to raise the cry
> and then leave.  No sir.  I was prepared for the long haul.  Dave
> actually surprised me when he withdrew the link so suddenly after
> only a few days of protest.  His first posting led me to believe
> that the link would be here for a long time no matter what.

	Dave withdrew the link since he was SURPRISED that so many
people were against it.  Especially since he had said he was working on
it in the past and no one complained.  So he went ahead and set up a
simple pass though to GEnie, announces it and suddenly was the target of
lots of attacks.  Given that why shouldn't he take the easy way out and
shutdown?  Remember he thought he was doing something people would
approve of.

	And where in the first posting did he say the link was going to
stay up no matter what?  (I believe you are reading what you want to
into his note.)

	I happen to think that a Usenet to GEnie link, either one or
two way is a bad idea.  Mainly because of the high S/N ratio on the
commercial nets like GEnie (at one time or another I've used all of
them).  But if such a link goes up I'm not going to worry about it.
I'm already on several of the commercial nets, having what I say here
also posted there doesn't change things very much.

	I am very surprised at how many people treated this.  People
are now using this as a way of bragging that they were ready to fight
the battle till the bitter end.  And how if it hadn't been for them
that Usenet would have been ruined.  Almost sounds like they (and there
are lots of people in that "they") need the PR in order to join the
"net gods".

	This all could've been handled, politely, with a few email
messages to Dave telling him why he was wrong to setup a one way link
to GEnie.  He does read and answer his mail.  (It does take awhile, his
mail/news feed adds at least 1 day, and often 2 days, each directtion.)
Instead there was a wild attack with no attempt to try milder measures.


	Oh well, maybe it was just time for a good flame war and Dave
was just the easiest target.


			Dan Moore
			AT&T Bell Labs
			Denver
			dlm@druwy.ATT.COM

davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (12/27/89)

In article <4578@druwy.ATT.COM> dlm@druwy.ATT.COM (Dan Moore) writes:

| 	I happen to think that a Usenet to GEnie link, either one or
| two way is a bad idea.  Mainly because of the high S/N ratio on the
| commercial nets like GEnie (at one time or another I've used all of
| them).  But if such a link goes up I'm not going to worry about it.
| I'm already on several of the commercial nets, having what I say here
| also posted there doesn't change things very much.

  I don't much like the idea of a one way link, for reasons previously
stated. I would be in favor of a two way link, because it would allow
feedback from the GEnie side, which possibly would contain useful info.
I believe that I can write a copyright notice which allows
redistribution of my articles to any forum which allows a response,
should I feel that was needed.
-- 
bill davidsen	(davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen)
"The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called
'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see
that the world is flat!" - anon