era1987@violet.berkeley.edu (09/21/87)
In an earlier article Erik Fair explained that it isn't possible to trace people who harass women or disrupt soc.women, or post to moderated groups without authorization, using a pseudonym and phony site, because that's the way he and others set up the usenet software. When problems began developing posting to soc.women on Berkeley.edu, I contacted the consult people who told me that the woman who administrated their news had left to get a Ph.D. Others who used Berkeley.EDU also began to have problems. And each time I use the system the problems get worse. I can undestand that Berkeley, being a low-income, underendowed, poverty-stricken school, cannot afford to pay a news administrator-- it is all they can do to scrape up kegs for football games and frat parties. But Berkeley has a computer science department and a lot of people who are much more familiar with computers and software than I am. Hasn't anybody told them that computers do not act independently? Do they think that software degenerates all by itself? That one day a program operates properly, and that the next day it decides, all by itself, not to operate properly any more? If it has become more difficult to access usenet on Berkeley.EDU, and impossible to post directly to soc.women any more (it can still be done through Pnews, at least until the unix wizards like Erik Fair get around to setting it up so that can't be done either). This is not due to the absence of an administrator. This is due to the presence of woman-hating unix wizards and hackers who delight in sabotaging the software that Berkeley is charging me a 100% differential to use. If I were an educated computer science major at a prestigious school like Berkeley, perhaps I could be conned into believe that the software degenerate all by itself. Since I am a simple, self-educated person, I tend to believe that software operates the way those with root privileges set it up to operate. Certainly if software can degenerate all by itslf, it could self-repair also. I would suggest to Berkeley.EDU that if those who are proud of having set up the usenet software so that it is impossible to trace saboteurs, don't manage to set it up so that it works, their root privileges be removed until the software restores itself or an administrator can be hired. --Mark
fair@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Erik E. Fair) (09/21/87)
Followup-To: Software does deteriorate when it is not maintained, because the environment around it changes. A computer program is a kind of model of the environment in which it operates, and when that model ceases to accurately reflect the environment it operates in, it ceases to work. Netnews has certain periodic manual maintenance needs, which, if they are not attended to, will cause the software to eventually break. Netnews doesn't have an authentication mechanisms in it because authentication in a network environment is a hard problem. If Mark Ethan Smith has an original thought about how it can be done, there are lots of people who'd like to hear it, myself included. Netnews in the UCB Computer Center (where violet.berkeley.edu is) is an unsupported software system, maintained by some members of the staff in their spare time. If it does not get the attention or support that Mark Ethan Smith thinks it ought to, I suggest that he petition Academic Computing Services (ACS) to officially support it. The user consultant people will be happy to tell him who to contact, however it might interest you to know that the vice chancellor in charge of the computer center was recently fired for having overspent his budget to the tune of between four and seven million dollars. I don't think they're hiring anybody just now. Regarding the thinly veiled accusation that I have allowed the netnews system on ucbvax to deteriorate soley for the purpose of censoring Mark Ethan Smith, I refute that. I work very hard to make sure that Berkeley has the best netnews service that can be had. We run the most current version of the software, with all patches applied, closely maintained by me. As for the computer center, if something isn't working there, it isn't because they want to censor Mark Ethan Smith; it's because they don't care about netnews. Of course, this also works to your advantage: I would be very surprised if they ever "pulled your password" for something you posted to the net. Mark, if you posted that message to get a rise out of me, you succeeded. If you are having trouble with netnews, let me know what the problem is, and I will try and get it fixed. If you recall your days on the WELL, there was never a time that I didn't answer your technical questions to the best of my ability to do so. However, accusing someone of misogyny and dereliction of duty is not generally the best way to get their good will. Erik E. Fair ucbvax!fair fair@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (09/21/87)
In article <5170@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> era1987@violet.berkeley.edu () writes:
<When problems began developing posting to soc.women on Berkeley.edu,
Note that Berkeley.edu is *not* violet.berkeley.edu. Violet is where
Mark reads news; Berkeley.edu is the machine that Erik Fair is
responsible for. I'm responsible for violet - because the person who
was maintaining it left, and I'm the only one who both cares a little
and can actually do the job.
<If it has become more difficult to access usenet on Berkeley.EDU, and
<impossible to post directly to soc.women any more
Soc.women isn't the only thing that has problems. comp.sys.amiga,
comp.lang.st80, and comp.sys.ibm.pc have all had that problem. It
comes and goes on random groups. NetNews is about my fourth priority -
if that. The others have kept me more than busy enough as it is, and I
don't have time to chase bugs in the software.
If Mark wants the sources to examine and suggest changes, I'd be glad
to provide them and try the changes. As it is, I'll find time to
install and test the next release of the parts of the news software I
think are causing the problem when the become available. That's the
best that I can do.
<mike
--
When logic and proportion have fallen soggy dead, Mike Meyer
And the white knight is talking backwards, mwm@berkeley.edu
And the red queen's on her head, ucbvax!mwm
Remember what the dormouse said. mwm@ucbjade.BITNETbillw@killer.UUCP (09/22/87)
Mark Ethan Smith: > If I were an educated computer science major at a prestigious school > like Berkeley, perhaps I could be conned into believe that the software > degenerate all by itself. Since I am a simple, self-educated person, > I tend to believe that software operates the way those with root > privileges set it up to operate. Certainly if software can degenerate > all by itslf, it could self-repair also. You, an "educated person," have never heard of the laws of thermodynamics? Grab your Webster's, look up "entropy.." -- Bill Wisner ..ihnp4!killer!billw 'An it harms none, do what thou will.' Everything in this message may be wrong.
genji@opal.berkeley.edu (Genji Schmeder) (09/22/87)
In article <5170@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> you write: >the absence of an administrator. This is due to the presence of >woman-hating unix wizards and hackers who delight in sabotaging the >software that Berkeley is charging me a 100% differential to use. > >--Mark If you know of any "woman-hating unix wizards" working for the UCB computer center (aka Computer Facilities & Communications and Academic Computing Services), then NAME THEM! Otherwise retract the accusation. I have worked since 1982 as a "unix wizard" (we prefer the term "unix doctor") for the computer center. I dont know any such bigots among my fellow programmers here. Your accusation is as serious as a charge of racism; to apply it without factual basis is character malignment. Next time you are about to post a complaint about anyone, reread it as if it were addressed to yourself and consider the impression.
mbr@aoa.UUCP (09/25/87)
I think Eric deserves praise for the self-restraint he demonstrated
in his response to the ignorant and inflammatory accusations made by
"Mark E. Smith", whoever she is.
--
Mark of the Valley of Roses
...!{harvard,ima}!bbn!aoa!mbr
...!{wjh12,mit-vax}!biomed!aoa!mbrallbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) (09/28/87)
As quoted from <1591@killer.UUCP> by billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner): +--------------- | Mark Ethan Smith: | | > If I were an educated computer science major at a prestigious school | > like Berkeley, perhaps I could be conned into believe that the software | > degenerate all by itself. Since I am a simple, self-educated person, | > I tend to believe that software operates the way those with root | > privileges set it up to operate. Certainly if software can degenerate | > all by itslf, it could self-repair also. | | You, an "educated person," have never heard of the laws of thermodynamics? | Grab your Webster's, look up "entropy.." +--------------- As former news admin for ncoast, I can state definitively that news software DOES degenerate if not CONSTANTLY maintained. Because it did on ncoast -- I was spread far too thin, and *finally* someone noticed and rearranged things. (Inews started barfing all over /usr/lib/news/active, to be exact about the symptoms hereabouts. Our newsfeeds were treated to many uux error returns as a result.) Keep in mind that Usenet news is a COMPLEX system -- you don't *really* think that a system which manages a network of over 10000 sites (our pathalias file suggests such, at least) runs by itself with zero maintenance, do you? Believe me -- entropy hits hard and fast, especially with a heavily over- loaded network and lots of ignorant jack*sses doing their d*mnedest to screw it over royally, not to mention simple mistakes (consider the two sites which didn't mark comp.mail.elm as unmoderated when they were supposed to, or the problems when hplabs got their notesfiles gateway screwed up). Ergo: it's quite possible that if nobody's administering news on Berkeley.edu (I thought that was the domain, btw, NOT a machine), it's degenerating rapidly. As to your snide comments about people not administering it ("poverty- stricken... all they can do to produce kegs for frat parties", I believe you said, Mark): There is no legal agreement between you and UCB which states that they must provide netnews access or insure that you have such access and that it will function correctly. I _guarantee_ this... because UCB is not a netnews provider, it is a university. So they don't have a legal responsibility to insure that you can post news, and you don't have a legal right to a working netnews system just because you're at UCB and using one of their machines. If you doubt me, ask a lawyer. USENET NEWS IS NOT A RIGHT; IT IS A PRIVILEGE. NEVER FORGET THIS. And finally: if you feel you have a grievance with someone at UCB, talk to _them_, not us. Here in Cleveland, I have 0.0000000000 interest in what your grievances with a California university are. If you were talking CWRU, that might be another thing. And I daresay that people at Harvard, CMU, Oklahoma State, etc. agree with this. Now, can we please get on with the REAL news? -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc {{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}!ncoast!allbery ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu Fido: 157/502 MCI: BALLBERY <<ncoast Public Access UNIX: +1 216 781 6201 24hrs. 300/1200/2400 baud>> "Mummy, what's an opinion?"
throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) (09/28/87)
> era1987@violet.berkeley.edu > Certainly if software can degenerate > all by itslf, it could self-repair also. Actually, it isn't certain at all, because this implication is false. However, false as the implication is, it *is* true that software can degenerate "all by itself", and it can also "self-repair". As Eric pointed out, unchanged software can exhibit changed behavior because of environmental changes. I am noting in addition that this changed behavior includes both the loss of function, and the gaining of function. What *is* certain is that the fact that netnews software under Eric's control cannot function as Mark wishes it could does not imply malice on Eric's part, nor incompetence. Wayne -- Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw
throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) (09/28/87)
> genji@opal.berkeley.edu (Genji Schmeder) >> era1987@violet.berkeley.edu >> This is due to the presence of >>woman-hating unix wizards and hackers who delight in sabotaging the >>software that Berkeley is charging me a 100% differential to use. > If you know of any "woman-hating unix wizards" working for > the UCB computer center (aka Computer Facilities & Communications > and Academic Computing Services), then NAME THEM! "There are 243 card-carrying communists working in the state department." "Name them!" I expect that any "woman-haters" Mark might name are about as much misogynists as the tail-gunner's "communists" were a danger to US security. Not that misogynists (or communits) don't exist. Just that they don't hide under *every* rock nor is their *every* decision motivated by misogyny (or communist ideology). -- "Ambush Bug, do you see communits behind every bush?" "No... but *sometimes* they hide there!" -- Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw