skyler@violet.berkeley.edu (07/19/88)
What Mark Smith may not realize is that one can be counter-sued for a lawsuit. He may want to find out about caprice. Those people who have been threatened with a lawsuit should probably save copies of those articles which warn MES that a lawsuit would be pointless. As I understand it, prior knowledge that a suit is groundless is an important part of a counter-suit. This suit is groundless. The laws cited require proof of _discrimination_ in _employment or hiring_. MES is not an employee of any of the sites he is threatening, nor is he applying for a job there. Then, and only then, does the question of whether or not using "she" is discriminatory become relevant. MES keeps saying that he must act as his own attorney because he does not have any money. Anyone who is poor can get an attorney under most circum- stances by contacting the local bar association. Attorneys are required to do a certain amount of _pro bono_ work. MES should contact the Alameda County Bar Association and then talk to an attorney about this suit. He should particularly ask about caprice and malicious prosecution. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that using "she" is discriminatory; let's assume that it's just like calling someone a "mick." If I called up a friend of mine and kept referring to "micks," that would be rude, racist, and stupid, but I would be within my rights. If an Irish person joined the conversation, just for fun (it wasn't their job and it wasn't going to hurt their job or career not to listen to the conversation) I would be especially rude, but I would still be within my rights. -Trish skyler@violet.berkeley.edu
mcglk@scott.stat.washington.edu (Ken McGlothlen) (07/20/88)
In some silly article, era1987@violet.berkeley.edu (Mark Ethan Smith) writes: +---------- | In article <12230@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> skyler@violet.berkeley.edu () writes: | +---------- | | [...suits can be countersued, look up "caprice"...] | +---------- | | [...oh, a lot you know, Skyler...] | | +---------- | | The laws cited require proof of _discrimination_ in _employment or hiring_. | +---------- | | Discrimination in employment andhiring are two special cases of | discrimination, but not the only cases. +---------- Yes, that's true, "--Mark"--but those two special cases are the only ones you are able to sue on. One point for Skyler. This lawsuit is truly groundless. "--Mark" can waste time and money on a network threatening to sue people all "--Mark" wants, and there will undoubtedly be some lawyers that will tell "--Mark" that "--Mark" might have a case. Sadly, I doubt "--Mark" would win, and "--Mark" would probably end up looking more foolish than "--Mark" currently does. I'd hate to have to resort to using "s/he/it" (pronounce it as you like) whenever I was addressing someone. Most people don't have this sort of monomania, and personally, I don't see how the pronoun "she" is in any way discriminatory, derogatory, or diminuitive. The fact that you do saddens me (I trust Trish [Skyler] would in no way be offended if I were to refer to . . . well, how *do* you want to be addressed, Trish?). . . . +---------- | [discussion of ethnic slurs] | | When an organization agrees not to discriminate they usually | publish a statement of nondiscrimination. It says that they do not | discriminate on the basis of certain factors, or that they do not | discriminate against anyone on the basis of such factors. If they only | stipulated that they would refrain from discriminating against | employees and students, their policy would not fulfil EEO/AA | requirements. The requirement to receive federal subsidies or meet | EEO/AA laws is not to discriminate. Period. | | I suspect that certain sites, particularly the ones with a | reputation for taking their finances very seriously, are not going to | risk their federal subsidies on somebody's insistence that harassing | people on the basis of sex or race is just fun. +---------- There are some major portions missing of "--Mark"'s train of logic here. How are these people "discriminating" against "--Mark" by referring to "--Mark" as "she"? Seems to me that "--Mark" would do better by using USENET only as a read- only service. If "--Mark" had something to add to a discussion, "--Mark" could use private mail, and reduce the pronouns to the set {you, me}. As it is, "--Mark" is just asking to be referred to by indirect sex-based pronouns. It's sad, in a way--"--Mark" otherwise seems articulate enough. But I find myself vaguely offended that there is someone out there that views the use of "she" and "her" as discriminatory--perfectly proper pronouns, being used perfectly properly. --Ken McGlothlen mcglk@scott.biostat.washington.edu mcglk@max.acs.washington.edu mcglk@max.bitnet
guardian@percival.UUCP (michael a. gray) (07/20/88)
Are there parties on the net that have archived some (if not all) of
this squalling from its onset? Having just resubscribed to news.admin
I have not seen anything prior to Mark's article warning of a lawsuit.
What is going on here?
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Newsgroups line has been edited, this article posted to news.admin only.
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lethargy at large /> ..!tektronix!percival!guardian
michael a. gray </ ..!uunet!littlei!percival!guardian
\ stacy@mcl.UUCP (Stacy L. Millions) (07/26/88)
In article <941@entropy.ms.washington.edu>, mcglk@scott.stat.washington.edu (Ken McGlothlen) writes: > It's sad, in a way--"--Mark" otherwise seems articulate enough. But I > find myself vaguely offended that there is someone out there that views > the use of "she" and "her" as discriminatory--perfectly proper pronouns, > being used perfectly properly. > > --Ken McGlothlen Mark is not the first person to be offended by the use of he/she or him/her. Most of the time it is people who find terms like "chairman" to be discriminatory. Mark is doing the opposite in finding she/her to be discriminatory because them imply a lesser status. He wants to be referred to as a male, and is offended by the people who know that he is female and refer to him by the female pronouns. That last sentence goes against every thing my english teachers ever tried to teach me. Personaly I think this whole discussion should be moved some where more fitting, like alt.silly :-) -stacy (go ahead, ask :-) -- "IBM Personal System/2. It's like having 256,000 crayons in one box." For those of you who are still doing your business reports with crayons! S. L. Millions ..!uunet!mcl!stacy